(September 27, 2020 at 4:45 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 4:19 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: This country never was a democracy..

Lots of people just keep saying it is.

Sure, it’s a democracy - a republic is a form of democracy. There’s lots of different brands of democracy. For example, we have a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary government, but still a democracy. What you’ve got hold of over there is a representative democracy.

Boru

Uh... Almost. It's a representive republic.

A true democracy only works on small scale. Everyone votes on everything. In a representatve Democracy - the representatives vote on everything - but as we have state governments as well - not all reps vote on all issues - only their own state issues..

(September 27, 2020 at 4:19 pm)onlinebiker Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 3:46 pm)Sal Wrote: Democracy has fallen.

This country never was a democracy..

Lots of people just keep saying it is.

The fact that it has made creditable efforts to be one of the more democratic states is the sole reason why this nation lasted this long. This nation will almost certainly disintegrate, probably in violence, if it were to be widely perceived as fairly undemocratic.

When Lincoln made his Gettysburg address, it was arguable for those who believe the will of the people ultimately justifies government that preserving the union was necessary to allow such a view to expand across the world and take Firmer hold In world still largely a sea of autocracies then in merely one experimental state on a marginal continent.

Now that such forms of government are not uncommon, and other statesBroadly observing similar principles have arguably done better, there is no longer really any moral reason why the union must be preserved. If United States is to be undemocratic, then those who believe in democracy should consider breaking away from it

(September 27, 2020 at 4:56 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 4:19 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: This country never was a democracy..

Lots of people just keep saying it is.

The fact that it has made creditable efforts to be one of the more democratic states is the sole reason why this nation lasted this long. This nation will almost certainly disintegrate, probably in violence, if it were to be widely perceived as fairly and democratic

Your whole statement hinges on an untruth - that democracy is a value - a state of being.

It is not.

It is a form of government in which all citizens vote on all issues. Stop. Period. End of definition.

(September 27, 2020 at 5:04 pm)onlinebiker Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 4:56 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: The fact that it has made creditable efforts to be one of the more democratic states is the sole reason why this nation lasted this long. This nation will almost certainly disintegrate, probably in violence, if it were to be widely perceived as fairly and democratic

Your whole statement hinges on an untruth - that democracy is a value - a state of being.

It is not.

It is a form of government in which all citizens vote on all issues. Stop. Period. End of definition.

Bullshit.

Definition, especially arbitrarily ones,  do not motivate anyone.  values do.

The definition of democracy is not worth the paper it is written on for any practical purpose if The value of democracy is not attractive.  A state without any deep habit of cultural unity will not last if it does not provide an attractive value.

United States lasted because it provided sufficiently convincing promise of satisfying the demands of the democratic value.

(September 27, 2020 at 5:11 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 5:04 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Your whole statement hinges on an untruth - that democracy is a value - a state of being.

It is not.

It is a form of government in which all citizens vote on all issues. Stop. Period. End of definition.

Bullshit.

Definition, especially arbitrarily ones,  do not motivate anyone.  values do.

The definition of democracy is not worth the paper it is written on for any practical purpose if The value of democracy is not attractive.  A state without any deep habit of cultural unity will not last if it does not provide an attractive value.

United States lasted because it provided sufficiently convincing promise of satisfying the demands of the democratic value.

Then U.S. has prospered because of the available resources, vast amounts of arable land, the lack of any permafrost to disrupt rail travel, the seven seaports that are open year-round, and our willingness to engage in violence to get what we want like when we dropped nukes to end a war. Oh, and we happen to pay lip service to the citizenry by having a vaguely democratic system.

We have propped up the value of the dollar by making it the world's reserve currency first by vast gold storage and then by somehow forcing all oil trades to be conducted in USD. There are many other examples of economic shenanigans, you just have to pay attention. The story of America is bloody and savage and has much less to do with careful nation building and more do with grit, determination, and bloody-mindedness.

And to the OP, I can't imagine the Dems beefing up the number of judges without touching off an arms race that will eventually lead to 52 judges at least, one for every state and one each for PR and DC! Won't that speed up our justice system!?

Quote:Your whole statement hinges on an untruth - that democracy is a value - a state of being.

It is not.

It is a form of government in which all citizens vote on all issues. Stop. Period. End of definition 

Nope democracy has no such definition. Democracy doesn't require everyone be allowed to vote or that all issues are voted on . In fact most democracy don't work that way at all .

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(September 27, 2020 at 5:43 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 5:11 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Bullshit.

Definition, especially arbitrarily ones,  do not motivate anyone.  values do.

The definition of democracy is not worth the paper it is written on for any practical purpose if The value of democracy is not attractive.  A state without any deep habit of cultural unity will not last if it does not provide an attractive value.

United States lasted because it provided sufficiently convincing promise of satisfying the demands of the democratic value.

Then U.S. has prospered because of the available resources, vast amounts of arable land, the lack of any permafrost to disrupt rail travel, the seven seaports that are open year-round, and our willingness to engage in violence to get what we want like when we dropped nukes to end a war. Oh, and we happen to pay lip service to the citizenry by having a vaguely democratic system.

We have propped up the value of the dollar by making it the world's reserve currency first by vast gold storage and then by somehow forcing all oil trades to be conducted in USD. There are many other examples of economic shenanigans, you just have to pay attention. The story of America is bloody and savage and has much less to do with careful nation building and more do with grit, determination, and bloody-mindedness.

And to the OP, I can't imagine the Dems beefing up the number of judges without touching off an arms race that will eventually lead to 52 judges at least, one for every state and one each for PR and DC! Won't that speed up our justice system!?

And having the Republicans pack the court with unqualified partisan loons is a good alternative ?

(September 27, 2020 at 5:43 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 5:11 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Bullshit.

Definition, especially arbitrarily ones,  do not motivate anyone.  values do.

The definition of democracy is not worth the paper it is written on for any practical purpose if The value of democracy is not attractive.  A state without any deep habit of cultural unity will not last if it does not provide an attractive value.

United States lasted because it provided sufficiently convincing promise of satisfying the demands of the democratic value.

Then U.S. has prospered because of the available resources, vast amounts of arable land, the lack of any permafrost to disrupt rail travel, the seven seaports that are open year-round, and our willingness to engage in violence to get what we want like when we dropped nukes to end a war. Oh, and we happen to pay lip service to the citizenry by having a vaguely democratic system.

We have propped up the value of the dollar by making it the world's reserve currency first by vast gold storage and then by somehow forcing all oil trades to be conducted in USD. There are many other examples of economic shenanigans, you just have to pay attention. The story of America is bloody and savage and has much less to do with careful nation building and more do with grit, determination, and bloody-mindedness.
And to the OP, I can't imagine the Dems beefing up the number of judges without touching off an arms race that will eventually lead to 52 judges at least, one for every state and one each for PR and DC! Won't that speed up our justice system!?

You think the mere abundance of natural resource is sufficient to prevent excess economic and political abuse, and discourage the people From seeking redress for the abuse by revolt and division of the state?    A system where large percentage of those that draw the short straw thinks the straw is given largely fairly. And a viable method of redress, and a system that does not permanently marginalize them due to the short straw, is necessary.

As to arms race, bring on the arm race.  When one side cheat ostentatiously and succeeds in gaining the advantage, and don’t give it up voluntarily, only all out arms race can mitigate their ill gotten advantage, while demonstrating that the eventual penalty of cheating Is so high as to ensure others are dissuaded from making cheating the permanent preferred method of business.

(September 27, 2020 at 5:58 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: You think the mere abundance of natural resource is sufficient to prevent excess economic and political abuse, and discourage the people From seeking redress for the abuse by revolt and division of the state?

Yes, there was plenty of room for growth early on and when there is plenty there is little need to battle for resources. Although this was disastrous for the indigenous people.

(September 27, 2020 at 5:58 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: A system where large percentage of those that draw the short straw thinks the straw is given largely fairly. And a viable method of redress, and a system that does not permanently marginalize them due to the short straw, is necessary.

This country has developed a system to bamboozle those that draw the short straw, so nothing to see here.

(September 27, 2020 at 5:58 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: As to arms race, bring on the arm race.  When one side cheat ostentatiously and succeeds in gaining the advantage, and don’t give it up voluntarily, only all out arms race can mitigate their ill gotten advantage, while demonstrating that the eventual penalty of cheating Is so high as to ensure others are dissuaded from making cheating the permanent preferred method of business.

You see, I am disgusted by what I have seen in the country from both sides. I lean very progressively so I side with Dems mostly, but there needs to be collaboration between the sides. We need to quit hallucinating slippery slopes and find balance. Right now both sides are whipping up their base to convince them that the other side will ruin the nation and THAT just isn't true. We are all the heros of our story we just need to find a way to steer the ship towards what is best for the most people. This is not going to happen because the huge corporations, and the wealthy people that run them OWN this country.

More judges means less will get done which means all kinds of shit will just slip through the cracks.

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(September 27, 2020 at 5:45 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: And having the Republicans pack the court with unqualified partisan loons is a good alternative ?

I didn't say that or even imply that.

(September 27, 2020 at 6:57 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote:

(September 27, 2020 at 5:58 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: You think the mere abundance of natural resource is sufficient to prevent excess economic and political abuse, and discourage the people From seeking redress for the abuse by revolt and division of the state?

Yes, there was plenty of room for growth early on and when there is plenty there is little need to battle for resources. Although this was disastrous for the indigenous people.

(September 27, 2020 at 5:58 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: A system where large percentage of those that draw the short straw thinks the straw is given largely fairly. And a viable method of redress, and a system that does not permanently marginalize them due to the short straw, is necessary.

This country has developed a system to bamboozle those that draw the short straw, so nothing to see here.

(September 27, 2020 at 5:58 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: As to arms race, bring on the arm race.  When one side cheat ostentatiously and succeeds in gaining the advantage, and don’t give it up voluntarily, only all out arms race can mitigate their ill gotten advantage, while demonstrating that the eventual penalty of cheating Is so high as to ensure others are dissuaded from making cheating the permanent preferred method of business.

You see, I am disgusted by what I have seen in the country from both sides. I lean very progressively so I side with Dems mostly, but there needs to be collaboration between the sides. We need to quit hallucinating slippery slopes and find balance. Right now both sides are whipping up their base to convince them that the other side will ruin the nation and THAT just isn't true. We are all the heros of our story we just need to find a way to steer the ship towards what is best for the most people. This is not going to happen because the huge corporations, and the wealthy people that run them OWN this country.

More judges means less will get done which means all kinds of shit will just slip through the cracks.

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(September 27, 2020 at 5:45 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: And having the Republicans pack the court with unqualified partisan loons is a good alternative ?

I didn't say that or even imply that.

And I am disgusted by people who don’t know when to stop giving in the name of collaboration  with people who spit in their faces at every opportunity, and tramples on the very name of collaboration, and exhibits zero evidence of meaning to ever make the smallest voluntary concession.  

collaboration is a good thing when you have collaborators.   collaboration with your own abusers in your own abused is not pitiable, it is contemptible.

Look, if we can't collaborate we are just going to keep pulling things back and forth and getting nowhere fast. I don't know how we can work with people who are pro Trump, I just don't get it, but somehow we need to win hearts and minds. I guess we can start with a bludgeon? Maybe sniper squads to take out the justices we don't like?

Again, I think Jesusland is our only option. I'm in Oregon so I'll be in the progressive new land that includes Canada.