God or the soul forge are not provably true.

That is the present state of the situation, and that is what I trust.

Are we basically starting with:
The soul forge may offer an explanation as to justifying some things that happen in this life.
But, it may not. (It's either true or false).

Are we saying the problem is basically - getting to the truth. (We still don't know if God exists, if He is running the forge, and if it's for a good reason)

@Eleven
Well, that's a cognitive proposition too. If you think it could be provably true, then you've opened the door to it being provably false.

That's what I'm referring to - not whether a proposition is true or false, but... whether, once committed to that by making a cognitive assertion, a person sticks with it rather than asserting cognitivism when it helps, and abandoning the same when it hurts.

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(December 15, 2020 at 9:54 am)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Are we basically starting with:
The soul forge may offer an explanation as to justifying some things that happen in this life.
But, it may not.  (It's either true or false).

Are we saying the problem is basically - getting to the truth.  (We still don't know if God exists, if He is running the forge, and if it's for a good reason)

A soul forge may exist and offer an explanation for why things happen in this life.
A soul forge may exist and -not- offer an explanation for why things happen in this life.

A soul forge may exist and offer an explanation for things in life...that is bad - and that is not our justification.
A soul forge may exist and offer an explanation for things in life...that is good - that's our justification.

All four of these cognitive propositions begin with a soul forges existence, but only one of them can satisfy the proposition that a soul forge is a justification for eternal torment (or, if we prefer, pain and suffering and death and whatnot) regardless of whether a god exists.  

What I'm suggesting is that if we float idea four as a cognitive proposition, and we're wrong about that proposition, then our beliefs are provably false and we certainly don't have to wait until we die to figure that out. We may get more clarity after we die, somehow, who knows how (also a cognitive assertion)...but so what? That's not required if statement four is a cognitive statement. It's true or false in this life, and the soul forge, if it exists, is good or bad in this life...and isn't that what we're hoping to explain..this life, with the assertion of the soul forge to begin with?

To me, it seems like a straightforward proposition..and I actually don't need soul forges or gods to explore it. Would you expect to become a better person or learn something from my beating the living shit out of you? Would my starving you or killing your child improve you? How about your child?

[quote pid='2014760' dateline='1608040894']

(December 15, 2020 at 9:54 am)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Are we basically starting with:
The soul forge may offer an explanation as to justifying some things that happen in this life.
But, it may not.  (It's either true or false).

Are we saying the problem is basically - getting to the truth.  (We still don't know if God exists, if He is running the forge, and if it's for a good reason)

To me, it seems like a straightforward proposition..and I actually don't need soul forges or gods to explore it.  Would you expect to become a better person or learn something from my beating the living shit out of you?  Would my starving you or killing your child improve you?  How about your child?
[/quote]

Your exploration of the topic would start with;
Right here and now, things happen that do not lead to spiritual growth.  This demonstrates No. 4 is false.

?
Is that fair?

It doesn't really matter what I think.

I was wondering whether you thought that my torturing you or killing your child would improve you or your child. That's -one- thing that would have to be true for no 4 to be true. Because of this, regardless of whether or not it is true, you've made a commitment to it by floating the soul forge. Are you comfortable with that commitment? We still have some way to go to determine whether either of us believes that no 4 is true..but it does start there, sure.

(December 15, 2020 at 10:44 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It doesn't really matter what I think.  

I was wondering whether you thought that my torturing you or killing your child would improve you or your child.  That's -one- thing that would have to be true for no 4 to be true.  Because of this, regardless of whether or not it is true, you've made a commitment to it by floating the soul forge.  Are you comfortable with that commitment?  We still have some way to go to determine whether either of us believes that no 4 is true..but it does start there, sure.

How do I explain the problem of evil?  Personally?

Do you believe that my starving you or my killing your child would improve you, or improve your child?

(there is no problem of evil with respect to a soul forge or to me, you're reaching for gods again - and the problem of evil may not even apply to gods, but that's -all- a wholly separate matter)

(December 15, 2020 at 10:52 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do you believe that my starving you or my killing your child would improve you, or improve your child?

Unlikely to directly improve me.

Someone else, then? Starving you doesn't improve you, killing your kid doesn't improve your kid. The field is completely open to suggestions.

(December 15, 2020 at 11:07 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Someone else, then?  Starving you doesn't improve you, killing your kid doesn't improve your kid.  The field is completely open to suggestions.

I don't understand what you're getting at