(December 17, 2020 at 7:54 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Whatever you say.

we have an admission of defeat!

(December 15, 2020 at 3:05 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Machines work too whether manufacturing companies exist or not. Oh wait..

(December 17, 2020 at 5:14 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 15, 2020 at 3:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: In fact, they do.  Internal combustion doesn't work or not work based on whether or not honda exists.  Is honda your god?

I don't think that's a good comparison you're making there. We're actually talking about the functioning of Hondas whether Honda Motor Co. exists or not. Let's say the latter vanishes from existence just like that, do you think accident will become the new explanation of the [apparent] design of Hondas ?

That's just so surprising, who could have predicted that you would suddenly think your comparison blew?

Are the Islam pushers we have here also busy on Christian forums with this same nonsense? Seems it would be a big score to lure someone away from their god to yours. Or do the Christian forums just ban and get it over with?

(December 17, 2020 at 11:15 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's just so surprising, who could have predicted that you would suddenly think your comparison blew?

Was my question too hard, I guess ? If every Honda Corp. factory suddenly disappears, do you think the best explanation for Hondas design will change ?

(December 17, 2020 at 5:14 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: I don't think that's a good comparison you're making there. We're actually talking about the functioning of Hondas whether Honda Motor Co. exists or not. Let's say the latter vanishes from existence just like that, do you think accident will become the new explanation of the [apparent] design of Hondas ?

At this point (probably should have asked this earlier in the thread), I think what we need from you, is how you go about detecting when something is designed, and when it isn't.

Please list the method(s) and steps you use to determine a designed thing from a non designed thing.

This should be fun...

(December 18, 2020 at 3:10 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 17, 2020 at 5:14 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: I don't think that's a good comparison you're making there. We're actually talking about the functioning of Hondas whether Honda Motor Co. exists or not. Let's say the latter vanishes from existence just like that, do you think accident will become the new explanation of the [apparent] design of Hondas ?

At this point (probably should have asked this earlier in the thread), I think what we need from you, is how you go about detecting when something is designed, and when it isn't.

Please list the method(s) and steps you use to determine a designed thing from a non designed thing.

This should be fun...

Indeed the designer "argument" is fatuous. It just says "that looks to me like its designed so it is".
There is no attempt to:
show the designer 
where the designer got the stuff
where the designer got the design/building training
show the design process
show the build process

All the while picking holes in what they incorrectly think are problems with evolution.

(December 19, 2020 at 6:51 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(December 18, 2020 at 3:10 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: At this point (probably should have asked this earlier in the thread), I think what we need from you, is how you go about detecting when something is designed, and when it isn't.

Please list the method(s) and steps you use to determine a designed thing from a non designed thing.

This should be fun...

Indeed the designer "argument" is fatuous. It just says "that looks to me like its designed so it is".
There is no attempt to:
show the designer 
where the designer got the stuff
where the designer got the design/building training
show the design process
show the build process

All the while picking holes in what they incorrectly think are problems with evolution.

I find it a bit interesting, and possibly telling, that since my post, and your reply, that Klorophyll has been absent from the forum.

Maybe I'm reading too much into his absence, but he has been consistently posting on this thread, up until the time he was asked to provide details on his method for differentiating designed from non-designed things.

Considering this is his thread, seems a bit odd...

Interesting how this wonderful, all knowing, all powerful god seems unable to sort out this covid thing that's going on, you would think a tiny little virus would be simple for him to fix. Maybe he just doesn't care anymore or possibly he is just a made up fantasy.

(December 18, 2020 at 3:10 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: At this point (probably should have asked this earlier in the thread), I think what we need from you, is how you go about detecting when something is designed, and when it isn't.

Please list the method(s) and steps you use to determine a designed thing from a non designed thing.

There is none, there is no distinction. This was precisely my point. Literally nothing in this earth belongs to us, nothing, everything is either created ex nihilo by an agent/cause or was always there. And because these things display appearances of complexity, design, etc, this makes it more probable than not that the agent in question is intelligent, and meant for the end result to happen.

Appearance of design is the very definition of design. What we usually consider to be cleverly designed machines is a combination of matter that doesn't belong to us in a way that is useful to a set of people, in other words, assigning design to something is actually a subjective issue; it's not difficult to see that there is no intrinsic property of design that we can assign to objects around us. It's really a matter of nomenclature.

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(December 23, 2020 at 6:38 pm)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Interesting how this wonderful, all knowing, all powerful god seems unable to sort out this covid thing that's going on, you would think a tiny little virus would be simple for him to fix. Maybe he just doesn't care anymore or possibly he is just a made up fantasy.

Worse things happen in this world and God lets them happen. The occurence of bad stuff is not a valid argument for God's nonexistence. If there were no evil, one cannot be grateful for what he has. After all, there are ungrateful people even with the presence of evil.

(December 28, 2020 at 11:44 am)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 18, 2020 at 3:10 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: At this point (probably should have asked this earlier in the thread), I think what we need from you, is how you go about detecting when something is designed, and when it isn't.

Please list the method(s) and steps you use to determine a designed thing from a non designed thing.

There is none, there is no distinction. This was precisely my point. Literally nothing in this earth belongs to us, nothing, everything is either created ex nihilo by an agent/cause or was always there.

Those are not the only options, and furthermore, there is no reason that the universe is not infinite.

(December 28, 2020 at 11:44 am)Klorophyll Wrote: And because these things displays appearances of complexity, design, etc, this makes it more probable than not that the agent in question is intelligent, and meant for the end result to happen.

That is a claim. Can you demonstrate it?

(December 28, 2020 at 11:44 am)Klorophyll Wrote: Appearance of design is the very definition of design.

Nope. Have you never heard that appearances can be deceiving?

(December 28, 2020 at 11:44 am)Klorophyll Wrote: What we usually consider to be cleverly designed machines is a combination of matter that doesn't belong to us in a way that is useful to a set of people, in other words, assigning design to something is actually a subjective issue; it's not difficult to see that there is no intrinsic property of design that we can assign to objects around us. It's really a matter of nomenclature.

That is flat out baloney.