(January 8, 2021 at 11:51 am)Spongebob Wrote:   My reasonable side says that the Democratic Party should reach out to those people and build bridges, find ways to address their concerns.  Unfortunately, looking at recent history, I doubt that will be possible and this gap between those people voting on myth and misinformation and everyone else will just continue to grow until the country just breaks apart.  

This is the only place where I'd pick a bone.

Building bridges where the rahowists want them is very possible, and we've been doing it for quite some time.  That's how we got here, not how we get out.

You want healthcare? Fine, then abandon the hoors and sluts who need it, cuz jesus. Theres your bridge.

You want infrastructure? Fine, start with a border wall to keep the browns out. Com-pro-mise.

on and on it goes......

(January 8, 2021 at 12:11 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: This is the only place where I'd pick a bone.

Building bridges where the rahowists want them is very possible, and we've been doing it for quite some time.  That's how we got here, not how we get out.

You want healthcare?  Fine, then abandon the hoors and sluts who need it, cuz jesus.  Theres your bridge.

You want infrastructure?  Fine, start with a border wall to keep the browns out.  Com-pro-mise.

on and on it goes......

That's why I don't think its really possible.  I think on most issues, there's a big gap and not much interest in compromising.  Most tea partiers would like all of the homosexual marriage laws revoked and abortion 100% banned for any reason.  They also want zero immigration.  And they don't want to meet anywhere near the middle.  That's not even scratching the surface on issues.

I find it hilarious that all the free marketers howl support for Trump's massive job creation.  Uh, the federal government is supposed to create jobs? That's our line.

Of course it's possible. It's what we've been doing. They don't want to meet anyone anywhere in the middle, but you do..so we end up three quarters of the way to flaming garbage by default.

It's straight up manipulation of the underlying liberal ethos that our Better Sensibilities™ are formed around, as is the propaganda they use to establish their negotiating position.

Honestly...I would support legislation that provided funding to build a wall, but provided legal amnesty and a path to citizenship for any undocumented immigrant that does not have a criminal record.
I would draft the bill such that it extends to undocumented immigrants found in the country in the future as well.


Most of the country, including most Republicans support amnesty anyway. And the wall would just be a symbolic waste of money(ladders). People would still enter the country without documentation, and they would have a path to citizenship once here.

If the GOP wants to waste their political capital on ineffectual measures while Democrats use theirs to draft meaningful policy...that sounds like a good compromise to me.

See pew data on citizenship pathways for undocumented immigrants...question 2 in the article...https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/17/americans-broadly-support-legal-status-for-immigrants-brought-to-the-u-s-illegally-as-children/

Most republicans support amnesty like trump cabinet members are leaving rather than 25thing him. A border wall is not an ineffective measure to fascists. It's not actually meant to keep people out. It's a monument to their power and an overt threat to the people -inside- the us. They would, ofc, just cheaply shoot the brown people if they got the greenlight on that - but that wouldn't satisfy the need for expensive monuments to their control and authority...so they'd still build that wall.

(January 8, 2021 at 12:42 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Most republicans support amnesty like trump cabinet members are leaving rather than 25thing him.  A border wall is not an ineffective measure to fascists.  It's not actually meant to keep people out.  It's a monument to their power and an overt threat to the people -inside- the us.  They would, ofc, just cheaply shoot the brown people if they got the greenlight on that - but that wouldn't satisfy the need for expensive monuments to their control and authority...so they'd still build that wall.

This just isn't how the current system works.
https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rig...der-patrol


But the current system does let ICE commit cultural genocide by rounding up undocumented immigrants and giving them forced vasectomies.  Amnesty would help prevent that.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ma...cna1240238
https://projectsouth.org/wp-content/uplo...aint-1.pdf

It's not how our system works, it's how they would like it to work. Who wants to compromise 3/4 of the way from wherever they are..to that? No one, right? Why did we even have to ask ourselves that question, about whether or not border control agents can just put em downrange..again?

I don't think that people are ready to confront the fact that the assholes doing asshole shit are expected. They're dumb, they can't govern properly - clearly. They need the assist from the compromisers who can, who will legitimize their illegitimate desires by looking forward in their typical big tent fashion and do for the fascists what the fascists have not yet been able to do for themselves. This isn't even a recent thing, or specific to this moment. Who built the drone program? Who was the drone warlord? You'll find that the answers to the questions are informative.

The nutters built it, but no one used it better than b barry bamz.

Howsabout the deportation state? Again, nutters built it, but who was the deporter in cheif?

I think we had a decent example of how bipartisan efforts can look. The Dems and Republicans separated the actual coronavirus relief into one bill, and all the poison pills from both sides into another.

(January 8, 2021 at 12:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's not how our system works, it's how they would like it to work.  Who wants to compromise 3/4 of the way from wherever they are..to that?  No one, right?  Why did we even have to ask ourselves that question, about whether or not border control agents can just put em downrange..again?

-and yet...

If you want to do a bad faith framing of our positions...
Who wants to reject a bill that would help end the cultural genocide of the american-latinx community?  No one, right?

---

Also...what % of the population do you think wants our border patrol shooting people at the border?
Do you think that % would increase or decrease if we gave more undocumented immigrants a path to citizenship once they eventually become citizens?

A greater percentage than would respond in the affirmative to a stranger over the telephone when asked that question - and an even greater percentage when it can be done out of sight and out of mind by someone else.

Did you miss the last four years?

I'm not contesting that this isn't how our system should work, or that there are still barriers to what they want in place - but those are exactly the things that you will be asked to compromise over - already are being told you must compromise over. Will...compromise over, if the past is any indicator. Otherwise, as the nutballs are pointing out, the calls for healing and compromise and the big tent are thoroughly disingenuous. They're not nuts in any sense other than my calling them that. They're the mainstream. They keep telling us, they keep showing us...we keep pretending otherwise. If it helps, my frustration isn't aimed at or caused by you or any position you hold or any disagreement between any principle we might be likely to discuss. It's that we are intentionally blinding ourselves to this reality as it's too uncomfortable to bear and we don't have easy answers for it.

We worry it might be impossible to bring americas two halves back together forgetting (or wishing to avoid the implications) that we have already consistently centered white supremacists for every bit of our history as a country. We're already as together with them as we ever were or even could be, imo. That's what makes their complaints so ridiculous. They already have what they want and could better keep it by keeping their mouths shut about it.