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(February 4, 2021 at 9:31 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Well, Canada is the only country on earth that considers them a terrorist group, and our government is lead by a man who wears blackface for fun and considers it oppression against women to use the word 'mankind'.
How do you feel about Black Lives Matter? They've caused a lot more damage and injury than the Proud Boys and BLM is nominated for the Peace Prize. Is Black Lives Matter a terrorist group to you? I'd say no, they are not a terrorist group.
BLM was the expected reaction for the terrorism of Donald Trump and his white supremacists, white racist police officers were killing black people and take selfies over their dead bodies !
White supremacists are a disease just like ISIS, they are more advanced and capable too,and they showed their real intentions with the killing of Floyd + the attack on the Capitol; I also have my own grudge against these fucks after we saw them in action in the Mosque attacks in New Zealand.
Planes being flown into the twin towers and every other terrorist attack in Western countries should have been the expected reaction to America fucking with the Middle East too, don't you think? America is the biggest bully in the world and certainly earned the anger that Islamists have towards them.
You are going back on what you said before. You said it's as simple as they either cause harm or they don't. BLM and their supporters cause a crapload of harm, to blacks, whites, Asians, and others, even if you think their anger is justified.
(February 4, 2021 at 10:30 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:
(February 4, 2021 at 10:17 pm)WinterHold Wrote: BLM was the expected reaction for the terrorism of Donald Trump and his white supremacists, white racist police officers were killing black people and take selfies over their dead bodies !
White supremacists are a disease just like ISIS, they are more advanced and capable too,and they showed their real intentions with the killing of Floyd + the attack on the Capitol; I also have my own grudge against these fucks after we saw them in action in the Mosque attacks in New Zealand.
Planes being flown into the twin towers and every other terrorist attack in Western countries should have been the expected reaction to America fucking with the Middle East too, don't you think? America is the biggest bully in the world and certainly earned the anger that Islamists have towards them.
You are going back on what you said before. You said it's as simple as they either cause harm or they don't. BLM and their supporters cause a crapload of harm, to blacks, whites, Asians, and others, even if you think their anger is justified.
Of course 9/11 was an expected consequence for America fucking with the world. But that doesn't make Bin Laden a hero.
Of course when you bomb people with fire, they will respond with fire too.
Especially poor, black people getting stomped by spoiled white racists who want to bring the Confederation era back.
February 4, 2021 at 11:50 pm (This post was last modified: February 5, 2021 at 12:00 am by Irreligious Atheist.)
(February 4, 2021 at 11:15 pm)WinterHold Wrote:
(February 4, 2021 at 10:30 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Planes being flown into the twin towers and every other terrorist attack in Western countries should have been the expected reaction to America fucking with the Middle East too, don't you think? America is the biggest bully in the world and certainly earned the anger that Islamists have towards them.
You are going back on what you said before. You said it's as simple as they either cause harm or they don't. BLM and their supporters cause a crapload of harm, to blacks, whites, Asians, and others, even if you think their anger is justified.
Of course 9/11 was an expected consequence for America fucking with the world. But that doesn't make Bin Laden a hero.
Of course when you bomb people with fire, they will respond with fire too.
Especially poor, black people getting stomped by spoiled white racists who want to bring the Confederation era back.
It makes Bin Laden a hero to many, many people. A freedom fighter. To others, it makes him a terrorist. The same goes for the BLM movement. It is seen as heroic, even though they burn down black and Asian businesses. Even though their supporters set up barriers in the streets and have shot and killed a black child because his mom drove past the barrier. Even though they try to burn down court houses. Even though they tried to burn down an apartment building just because a mayor lives there, not caring who else they hurt. Some see them as freedom fighters. Others see them as terrorists. I see them somewhere in between. Many of them are good people with good intentions, but many of them just want to see the country burn and they want others to hurt because they are hurting.
You should be outraged at the Neo-Nazi types. They are despicable. I understand your outrage at the attacks on Mosques. I watched the video the one guy made when he was shooting up the Mosque. It was horrible and I can't blame you for feeling so strongly. The Proud Boys did not do that though. We can't just lump all these people in together. I don't believe the Proud Boys chairman wants an all white country, because then they will kick him out for being Cuban-American. What good will that do him? The Proud Boys chairman has not ordered Proud Boys members to go around shooting people. He did not order Proud Boys members to go and invade the Capitol building. The Proud Boys in Canada do not get up to much mischief, so just calling them terrorists because some of their members are racist or some of them have done some really dumb stuff is going way too far. You fight racism with education. You fight police brutality against black people by getting all police to wear body cams so it's harder for them to get away with abusing black people or framing them for crimes. You change the system by making it easier for the "good cops" to turn in the bad cops without the fear of losing their jobs for doing so. Give them some kind of protection for turning on their fellow cops. You won't defeat racism by making racists terrorists under the law. You don't defeat it by taking away people's civil liberties. Racism will always exist.
February 5, 2021 at 12:40 am (This post was last modified: February 5, 2021 at 1:21 am by The Architect Of Fate.)
Quote: I don't believe the Proud Boys chairman wants an all white country, because then they will kick him out for being Cuban-America
You do realize a group can have colored members and still be a white nationalist, And the militant wing of the proud boy's Kyle Chapman has made it clear what the proud boys are all about
Quote:We will confront the Zionist criminals who wish to destroy our civilization,” Chapman wrote after using other bigoted language. “We recognize that the West was built by the White Race alone and we owe nothing to any other race.”
It doesn't matter how many excuses you make these people are a danger and they are guilty and the government is in the right to crack down on their activities.
Quote:The Proud Boys in Canada do not get up to much mischief
False they have committed numerous acts of street violence and intimidation and vandalism and supported other terrorist groups in Canada, And the only reason they have not done more is that we don't fuck around with their kind.
Quote:The same goes for the BLM movement.
99 percent of BLM protests were peaceful and the violent elements HAVE BEEN CONDEMNED !!!. The freaking proud boys are a hate group and no they are not "good people".
Quote: You fight police brutality against black people by getting all police to wear body cams so it's harder for them to get away with abusing black people or framing them for crimes.
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?” –SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
(February 4, 2021 at 11:15 pm)WinterHold Wrote: ISIS cause damage, so they terrorists.
ISIS has more firepower because it is active in actual warzones.
[...]
Of course 9/11 was an expected consequence for America fucking with the world. But that doesn't make Bin Laden a hero.
So you first admit that there are Islamic terrorists organizations, but then you proclaim that America dealing with them is a fuck-up that deserved 9/11 as a consequence. How does that work? Should US just leave Islamic terrorists organizations alone?
For example, Boko Haram is plowing through Nigeria right now and nobody cares, not even the US.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
February 5, 2021 at 4:06 am (This post was last modified: February 5, 2021 at 4:52 am by The Grand Nudger.)
No one has made racists terrorists under the law other than racist terrorists themselves.
Anywho, part of the rise in global extremism, is that we were operating under fanciful ideas of how to deal with it. If we just educate the iraqis, we'd say. If we'd just educate the white supremacists, we'd say. It had to be their own personal failure, you see - some defect in them that we were in no way responsible for and couldn't be held accountable for. A defect that we could fix, with love and tolerance and....education. Preferably one that we could fix quietly, without a bunch of fuss about having been complicit for so long.
The problem with terrorists from the point of view of trying to help - is that by the time you've identified it, the only way to help is with a bullet. Those people are lost, and no amount of remedial algebra or kumbaya sessions will bring them back or alter the trajectory that their life has taken - where either they..or the other guy, end up in graves. I suppose that's a rough way to look at it, but it reflects the reality of terrorism. They're not winnable hearts, insomuch as they may have had moldable minds...someone has already given them shape and then fired the clay.
Thankfully, most racists aren't as committed to their racism as a terrorist is committed to whatever cause they've found. Just lazy, frustrated, and unwilling to accept their own culpability for the abject failure of their own lives. If we made that criminal, we'd need more prisons. If terrorists keep figuring out better ways to exploit that psychology in recruitment, we'll need more bullets.
(February 4, 2021 at 10:17 pm)WinterHold Wrote: BLM was the expected reaction for the terrorism of Donald Trump and his white supremacists, white racist police officers were killing black people and take selfies over their dead bodies !
-as to this
....we've been taking advantage of lynchings as a photo op for longer than the donald has been alive. It's not on account of one man or a single generation of white supremacists that the us is being forced to take a hard look at systemic racism. It's not about him, or even them. I think that you're closer to the truth with the comment below.
Quote:White supremacists are a disease just like ISIS, they are more advanced and capable too,and they showed their real intentions with the killing of Floyd + the attack on the Capitol; I also have my own grudge against these fucks after we saw them in action in the Mosque attacks in New Zealand.
They're not more advanced, or more capable. Not yet anyway. They have the benefit of access and anonymity in a target rich environment. They need money and cover and practice to become more advanced, to expand their capabilities. That's what makes depriving them of funds a better tactic than directly engaging them in conflict. Ultimately, even if you beat the living shit out of them at every turn - the hardened survivors are getting the practice they need. The funding is winnowed down from a pool of unserious competitors to just those individuals and organizations that can extract maximum harm for minimum investment. To just those nuts who can hold onto the credible expectation that everyone agrees with them, or will, or will be made to..one day. True Believers, you might say. Like our boy in new zealand. Like any islamist, for that matter. If there were a hiring agency that screened these people, they'd have a profile, lol. That's where we'd start to really see the full potential of all of the unused and unexploited terror labor the world has to offer - when terror is for profit and managed by pros, rather than nuts.
If it helps, hold the us army in mind when you consider the difference between the groups. The white supremacists are at the bottom of the rung. Little to no experience, struggling to maintain the belief in the assent of society. Islamist militants, some experience - credibly believing that they have the assent of society. Army - professional death merchants. The hope, in each case, is to prevent the groups from proceeding to the place better described or occupied by the next, and in the case of professional forces...that they don't devolve into a disorganized white supremacist mob.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
February 5, 2021 at 10:01 am (This post was last modified: February 5, 2021 at 10:46 am by Irreligious Atheist.)
(February 5, 2021 at 12:40 am)SUNGULA Wrote:
Quote: I don't believe the Proud Boys chairman wants an all white country, because then they will kick him out for being Cuban-America
You do realize a group can have colored members and still be a white nationalist, And the militant wing of the proud boy's Kyle Chapman has made it clear what the proud boys are all about
Quote:We will confront the Zionist criminals who wish to destroy our civilization,” Chapman wrote after using other bigoted language. “We recognize that the West was built by the White Race alone and we owe nothing to any other race.”
It doesn't matter how many excuses you make these people are a danger and they are guilty and the government is in the right to crack down on their activities.
Quote:The Proud Boys in Canada do not get up to much mischief
False they have committed numerous acts of street violence and intimidation and vandalism and supported other terrorist groups in Canada, And the only reason they have not done more is that we don't fuck around with their kind.
Quote:The same goes for the BLM movement.
99 percent of BLM protests were peaceful and the violent elements HAVE BEEN CONDEMNED !!!. The freaking proud boys are a hate group and no they are not "good people".
Quote: You fight police brutality against black people by getting all police to wear body cams so it's harder for them to get away with abusing black people or framing them for crimes.
Serial killers are peaceful 99 percent of the time. So what?
I couldn't read your washington post link because it says I have to sign up. I know that you can't just educate those current supremacists and change their minds. You focus on the younger generations and hope they turn out better. And to respond to the Grand Nudger's post, the US never tried to educate the Iraqis. They just wanted to stay there forever and take their resources. It's not surprising that the Iraqis didn't take kindly to that "education". Education does work because clearly the US and other western countries are way less racist than they used to be. I actually think the theory that a reduction in racism leads people to seeing more racism makes a lot of sense. Bret Weinstein and his wife explain in this video
Nothing will solve police brutality. There are always going to be flawed and defective officers on the job who take out their anger on citizens or even well intentioned officers that make really bad decisions. You can only try to fight police brutality. Not solve it.
(February 5, 2021 at 2:44 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(February 4, 2021 at 11:15 pm)WinterHold Wrote: ISIS cause damage, so they terrorists.
ISIS has more firepower because it is active in actual warzones.
[...]
Of course 9/11 was an expected consequence for America fucking with the world. But that doesn't make Bin Laden a hero.
So you first admit that there are Islamic terrorists organizations, but then you proclaim that America dealing with them is a fuck-up that deserved 9/11 as a consequence. How does that work? Should US just leave Islamic terrorists organizations alone?
For example, Boko Haram is plowing through Nigeria right now and nobody cares, not even the US.
You misunderstand what he and I were saying (writing). We don't approve of Islamists targeting innocent people. When you go to war with them though, don't be surprised when they return the favour and take the war to you in Western countries. The US and other Western counties kill a lot more Muslim innocents than the Islamists kill Western innocents.
February 5, 2021 at 10:50 am (This post was last modified: February 5, 2021 at 11:55 am by The Grand Nudger.)
A wonderful example of the failures of education. Presumably, we all here have a western education, they got to us when we were young. That doesn't stop us from believing in strange things like white supremacy, or that the us was shaking down iraq for it's resources. Equally inexplicable, the notion that we're less racist™..today..in a thread about the rise of global right wing extremism.
Education is great and all, but with respect to extremists, it just produces better educated extremists. People who can actually build ieds or capture then command an abusive and sprawling infrastructure - rather than those who impotently dream about it. People who understand which psychological levers to pull and how to tailor their propaganda to a specific audience, rather than stumps who put on their nazi cosplay regalia and damage their brand. Education is a tool, and like any tool, it's value neutral. Good and bad people find equal use in education when it comes to furthering their aims - and with respect to global extremism, the capture of education is itself an aim. The reason for this being plainly apparent. We don't live in a world where dumb extremism can succeed. They have to replace all of the educated people who oppose them with educated extremists in order for their dream society to be more than just a dream. In order for the trains to run on time.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(February 5, 2021 at 10:01 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: You misunderstand what he and I were saying (writing). We don't approve of Islamists targeting innocent people. When you go to war with them though, don't be surprised when they return the favour and take the war to you in Western countries.
They are already in war with everyone who is not them. Just look at Nigeria and Boko Haram. And he said that 9/11 happened because of a"fuck-up" with them.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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