I went through a phase where I liked dinosaurs. My father shamed me endlessly for this in order to make me more successful today.

JK, none of that happened, because my father wasn't a raging dumpster fire. I had an actual crackhead stepdad once who dispensed better advice than to grind your children down and save this world the trouble.

(March 9, 2021 at 7:20 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: No, it is not semantic it is objective. Any definition of gender that excludes trans identities is a denial of trans people and it is transphobic and will not be tolerated, And trans suicide is caused by ignorant bigots, and regardless of people who go through a phase parents should be supportive regardless.

I looked up man and one of the definitions is an adult male human. Male is a sex. I don't think biologists and doctors are being ignorant bigots by using different language than we choose to use when we say that men can get pregnant.

Quote:The trans suicide rate is very similar before and after surgery.

No, it isn't no matter how much right-wingers push that lie. Transition see vast decreases in suicides when mixed with proper care and peer and parental support.

Quote:I understand that many don't grow out of it and are truly transgender.

Most don't 

Quote: I don't want them to change who they are. 

Yes you do 

Quote:When it's a small child and you don't know how real it is at that point though, 

Yes they fucking do the condescension that kids don't know their own minds is bullshit 

Quote:I've seen experts say that it should be discouraged,

No credible expert working from the consensus of experts 

Quote: and that makes sense because it's preferable that they grow out of it and not be part of a group that has such a high suicide rate.

Again suicide is caused by external factors not being trans so no it's doesn't make sense.

Quote: We're talking about young children here.

Yup and they know themselves better than you think and better than their parents by far.

Quote: If they're a teenager or a bit younger, then yes, support them and love them as they are. If a four or five-year-old biological male says they think they're a girl, you don't know what's real at that point.

Yes, you do regardless of age. 


Sorry, your attempts at spewing TERF talking points have failed you again.

You've swallowed another load of horseshit from the usual suspects, man. I think that you should man up and stop that.

(March 9, 2021 at 7:50 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 9, 2021 at 7:20 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: No, it is not semantic it is objective. Any definition of gender that excludes trans identities is a denial of trans people and it is transphobic and will not be tolerated, And trans suicide is caused by ignorant bigots, and regardless of people who go through a phase parents should be supportive regardless.

I looked up man and one of the definitions is an adult male human. Male is a sex. I don't think biologists and doctors are being ignorant bigots by using different language than we choose to use when we say that men can get pregnant.

Any definition of gender that excludes trans identities is bigotry full stop.

---

If you call this person man you're a bigot end of story and you will rightly be ridiculed for it. Because this is a women's end of story. You don't get to use your definition to define her because your definition is wrong. It's not semantic. THIS IS A WOMEN!

---

(March 9, 2021 at 8:00 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You've swallowed another load of horseshit from the usual suspects, man.  I think that you should man up and stop that.

Remember this is the same person who bought the white replacement theory

(March 9, 2021 at 7:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I went through a phase where I liked dinosaurs.  My father shamed me endlessly for this in order to make me more successful today.

JK, none of that happened, because my father wasn't a raging dumpster fire.  I had an actual crackhead stepdad once who dispensed better advice than to grind your children down and save this world the trouble.

Off topic, but I think dinos should be more a part of daily conversation. Instead of asking, 'What's your sign?, people should be asking, 'What's your favourite dinosaur?'

My friends used to ask me that all the time when I was a kid (right answer: ankylosaurus. I will fight you on this). It's sad that we lose this particular social interaction when we grow up.

Please resume your previous discussion.

Boru

(March 9, 2021 at 6:39 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: If you have a young boy who identifies more with female things or female dress, this should be discouraged as well, and hopefully they grow out of it. No one should want their child to be transgender, given the suicide rate and all the problems they will face in life. You try to point them in another direction, but if the trans thing sticks long term, then you accept it and love them how they are. You still gotta try to put them in the best position to succeed in life though.

No, discouraging this is a bad idea. If you at the very least, tolerate it, they can feel free to explore it, and they can then decide for themselves how they want to express gender. They might become trans, they might just lose interest in female things in the same way they lose interest in building sand castles, or they might just decide they're a guy who just likes to wear women's clothing sometimes. You discourage it, there's a good chance he won't stop. He just won't do it in front of you, and if it turns out the kid does become trans, the fact that she has to pretend to be a he for you just makes it worse for them.

You mention that there's a huge suicide rate among transfolk. That is true. The thing is, literally every study done into the issue says that this is because of social factors, namely discrimination. And one of the biggest factors, one stated in big orange letters in one of the studies I linked before:
"Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide."  

And it's not just disowning then once they come out. It can also come from the sort of discouragement you mentioned. Suppose you had a son named Glen. Then imagine that you see him trying on one of his mother's dresses. You tell him in no uncertain terms he shouldn't do that. Now imagine that he explores these interests in private, and eventually it reaches the point where your son Glen realises he should have been your daughter Glenda.  Glenda knows what you thought of her wearing her mother's dresses. She knows you'd rather see her as a boy. She starts to feel imprisoned in this "Glen" identity that doesn't feel real to her. As far as she knows, there's a good chance that if she comes out, at the very least, her relationship with you will be strained and there's a distinct possibility that you'll disown her. If that happens, she'll probably end up on the streets. And then, she starts to decide that the best thing would be to end it all. You may say that you'd support her if she comes out as trans, but if all you do before then is discourage it, there's no reason for her to believe that.

And another thing that pretty much all studies of transgender suicide rates note: The one thing that's guaranteed to decrease suicidality in transgender people is accepting their chosen gender identity. All that shit you've described as an political correctness gone mad in previous posts is the sort of thing that helps make them less suicidal. If you actually gave a shit about trans suicide, affirming their chosen gender is the sort of thing you'd need to do to lower it.

And on the off chance that anyone here thinks trans people are just mentally ill and that, with therapy, they can just get over it, I have to ask: if that actually worked, don't you think that they'd actually be doing that? \

(March 9, 2021 at 8:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 9, 2021 at 7:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I went through a phase where I liked dinosaurs.  My father shamed me endlessly for this in order to make me more successful today.

JK, none of that happened, because my father wasn't a raging dumpster fire.  I had an actual crackhead stepdad once who dispensed better advice than to grind your children down and save this world the trouble.

Off topic, but I think dinos should be more a part of daily conversation. Instead of asking, 'What's your sign?, people should be asking, 'What's your favourite dinosaur?'

My friends used to ask me that all the time when I was a kid (right answer: ankylosaurus. I will fight you on this). It's sad that we lose this particular social interaction when we grow up.

Liopleurodon. Boru? Prepare to meet floor.

(March 9, 2021 at 8:00 pm)SUNGULA Wrote:

(March 9, 2021 at 7:50 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: I looked up man and one of the definitions is an adult male human. Male is a sex. I don't think biologists and doctors are being ignorant bigots by using different language than we choose to use when we say that men can get pregnant.

Any definition of gender that excludes trans identities is bigotry full stop.

---

If you call this person man you're a bigot end of story and you will rightly be ridiculed for it. Because this is a women's end of story. You don't get to use your definition to define her because your definition is wrong. It's not semantic. THIS IS A WOMEN!

---

(March 9, 2021 at 8:00 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You've swallowed another load of horseshit from the usual suspects, man.  I think that you should man up and stop that.

Remember this is the same person who bought the white replacement theory

It's not my definition. It's one of the dictionaries definitions, which some doctors, biologists, professors, etc choose to use. I accept that that is a woman. But's they're also a biological male, and that can't be changed. They are both a woman and male at the same time. Some are referring to gender when they say man. Some are referring to sex. I want them to feel comfortable and if they feel they have more of a feminine brain, that's good enough for me to consider them a woman, but who the hell am I to force my language on a doctor or a biologist?

No one had to force doctors or biologists to accept that gender is a social construct. They're the ones trying to tell your thick ass that very thing. They're the ones trying to tell you that your proscribed course of action is the problem. They're the ones telling you that you believe in myths about children and gender.