(June 1, 2021 at 8:49 am)Brian37 Wrote: The move to hiding behind "allegory" or "metaphor" is recent in theist apology.

This is not true. 

Paul interpreted the Old Testament as allegory. Jesus spoke in parables. Augustine wrote a whole book on non-literal Genesis.

(June 1, 2021 at 8:26 am)Belacqua Wrote: You can see from the responses so far, that people who were raised Christian and became atheist still think in terms of sola scriptura literalism.

That is, they can't conceive of mythical writing or allegory as anything other than literal truth. Nor are they aware of how many important Christians in history reject sola scriptura literalism. 

This is why I think so many atheists left their church at about age 12 and stopped learning anything about it from then on. Their conception of Christian belief is that of a 12-year-old. This is then reinforced by poorly-informed people like Hitchens, who has led many sheeple astray.

I was taught that it was literal truth. I had no need or desire after that to learn any more. Why should I?

You should probably name drop a couple of more times to support your superiority.

Beware john, pretty soon Bel will tell you that you are in error also.

(June 1, 2021 at 8:57 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 8:49 am)Brian37 Wrote: The move to hiding behind "allegory" or "metaphor" is recent in theist apology.

This is not true. 

Paul interpreted the Old Testament as allegory. Jesus spoke in parables. Augustine wrote a whole book on non-literal Genesis.

You can make any argument you want, but the readers  literally took the fantastic claims as real.

Even today there are people who still believe that the earth was made in 6 days, and people who still believe that the biblical flood happened. People to this day still believe there was a character named Jesus who was the product of a virgin birth. There are people to this day that still believe that Jesus magically survived his execution. It was much more the case back then.

Augustine was not one of the writers of the bible in any case. He lived way after the fact.

One cannot hate what doesn't exist.

(June 1, 2021 at 9:07 am)Brian37 Wrote: You can make any argument you want, but the readers  literally took the fantastic claims as real.

Some of "the readers" did and some of them didn't. You seem unaware of how many did not. 

Are you aware that the ancient world was actually much more comfortable with allegorical interpretation than modern people are? That hero-narratives, like the gospels, were intended to teach a message and not convey journalism? 

Quote:It was much more the case back then.

What you assert without evidence I can dismiss without evidence.

Quote:Augustine was not one of the writers of the bible in any case. He lived way after the fact.

That's right. Fourth to fifth century. And comfortable with non-literal readings.

(June 1, 2021 at 8:19 am)brewer Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 7:25 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: Yes, this could be very true. I typically don't go around asking people if they are Christian or atheist, so I can only speak about the two whom I personally know and speak with on this subject. 

I try not to treat anybody any differently because of their worldview. I do know individuals that do that though and it saddens me that they will disregard a person simply because they do not believe as we believe.

Yes! That is what I want to know. In Christianity, we call it our testimony and they vary from one end to the other. I want to hear your testimony! So, for example, you say that you were raised Christian until you were about 13 and that the illogical claims became apparent to you. If I may ask what denomination were you raised in and what claims became illogical to you? What really was the straw that broke the camel's back for you and how did your family respond to that?

The denomination was Evangelical Lutheran.

Illogical claims: The silly ones were mostly the magical ones, creating everything in 7 days, talking snakes, killing bears, possessed pigs,  living hundreds of years, feeding thousands, flooding worlds, parting seas, food falling out of the sky, ....... the list is long. The disturbing ones were eternal punishment, the god wars, exclusion, entitled judgement.

The straw was when I asked the pastor for concrete evidence to justify the belief and his response was 'just believe because I/we/the bible tells you to', with the added implication of 'no heaven for you'. In other words no evidence. You don't happen to have any concrete evidence do you?

My family fought it for a while but we eventually reached an agreement.

Thank you for giving us your story I greatly appreciate it. 

I am curious as to what you mean by the god wars and exclusion?

LOL, I like the question you pose to me for evidence, but my reason here is not to debate nor evangelize. I am sure you have heard it all so no point really for me to put in my own 2 cents on this subject. 

I am happy to hear you have made amends with your family. I hate to hear families broken apart based on whether or not you believe in God.
Thank you again so much for sharing with us your story!

---

(June 1, 2021 at 9:19 am)no one Wrote: One cannot hate what doesn't exist.

Yeah, that's my bad. I should not have posed the question in such a way, my apologies.

(June 1, 2021 at 9:20 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 9:07 am)Brian37 Wrote: You can make any argument you want, but the readers  literally took the fantastic claims as real.

Some of "the readers" did and some of them didn't. You seem unaware of how many did not. 

Are you aware that the ancient world was actually much more comfortable with allegorical interpretation than modern people are? That hero-narratives, like the gospels, were intended to teach a message and not convey journalism? 

Quote:It was much more the case back then.

What's asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Quote:Augustine was not one of the writers of the bible in any case. He lived way after the fact.

That's right. Fourth to fifth century. And entirely comfortable with non-literal readings.

Not the point. How about you go back and read my post about Buddha mythology in this thread. My attitude about newer interpretations of ANY religion do not change the fact that others literally believe fantastic claims. Buddhists believe in fantastic claims too. 

I don't care what his personal interpretation was, that does not change that readers prior to him, and still even today take the fantastic claims in the bible literally. The bible is meant to be taken literally. Cherry picking after the fact is how religion tries to stay relevant. 

If the bible weren't meant to be taken literally there would be religious wars. No way for religious or political powers to manipulate society.

(June 1, 2021 at 8:40 am)Brian37 Wrote: I don't give Buddhism a pass either. It is a religion, not a philosophy. All one has to do is visit Asia/China or Japan, any part of that region. They have their own concepts of the spirit world, after life concepts, punishment reward mythology and superstitions. Calling Buddhism a "philosophy" is more a western romantic idea. There certainly are individuals and sects of Buddhism that sell it as a philosophy, but not all. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Buddhism)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(moth...he_Buddha) <----- Take notice of the claims of the super natural in this article. Words like "deities", "celestial beings",  and "heaven" and even taking the shape of an Elephant. 


The earliest mythology of the birth of Buddha had his mother "Queen Maya" being told by the divine world that she would give birth to a son who would bring wisdom to the world. Buddha also avoided the birth canal and was born out of Queen Maya's side. 

While atheists mainly run into Christians on this website, we don't simply stick to debating one religion. I've debated Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists as well.

Thank you for those citations. I found them very interesting.

(June 1, 2021 at 9:27 am)johndoe122931 Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 8:19 am)brewer Wrote: The denomination was Evangelical Lutheran.

Illogical claims: The silly ones were mostly the magical ones, creating everything in 7 days, talking snakes, killing bears, possessed pigs,  living hundreds of years, feeding thousands, flooding worlds, parting seas, food falling out of the sky, ....... the list is long. The disturbing ones were eternal punishment, the god wars, exclusion, entitled judgement.

The straw was when I asked the pastor for concrete evidence to justify the belief and his response was 'just believe because I/we/the bible tells you to', with the added implication of 'no heaven for you'. In other words no evidence. You don't happen to have any concrete evidence do you?

My family fought it for a while but we eventually reached an agreement.

Thank you for giving us your story I greatly appreciate it. 

I am curious as to what you mean by the god wars and exclusion?

LOL, I like the question you pose to me for evidence, but my reason here is not to debate nor evangelize. I am sure you have heard it all so no point really for me to put in my own 2 cents on this subject. 

I am happy to hear you have made amends with your family. I hate to hear families broken apart based on whether or not you believe in God.
Thank you again so much for sharing with us your story!

Genocide and murder is/was committed in the name of god. Christianity is very exclusionary if you don't believe.

I said agreement, not amend, there is a difference.

Jefferson wrote his "Jefferson Bible" in an attempt to strip it of all the fantastic claims of magic. I'd argue with him, if he were still alive, the same thing. Trying to change interpretation after the fact, is bad logic. It still doesn't change what prior intent was before you wrote what you wrote.