(June 8, 2021 at 1:33 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: In the OT, Satan is a servant of God.  He is the tester, but he is not allowed free reign.  He is part of God's plan for the fallen world.

Yep, just like a mafia boss.

(June 8, 2021 at 1:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Not the point. Most theists sell their god as "all loving" and "all powerful". If that is their argument, then nothing bad should ever happen.

Theists cannot grasp the reality that unfortunately bad happens. It isn't that good cant or doesn't happen. Good most certainly does happen. But they cant grasp that there is no divine power or ground villain involved. 

Theists also maintain that the presence of evil (or evil beings like Satan) is compatible with free will.....

(June 8, 2021 at 4:30 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(June 8, 2021 at 1:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Not the point. Most theists sell their god as "all loving" and "all powerful". If that is their argument, then nothing bad should ever happen.

Theists cannot grasp the reality that unfortunately bad happens. It isn't that good cant or doesn't happen. Good most certainly does happen. But they cant grasp that there is no divine power or ground villain involved. 

Theists also maintain that the presence of evil (or evil beings like Satan) is compatible with free will.....

Of course it is. What’s not compatible with free will is the Abrahamic god.

Boru

Freewill is never an excuse for the presence of evil

(June 8, 2021 at 5:50 pm)Helios Wrote: Freewill is never an excuse for the presence of evil

It may not be an excuse, but it’s certainly a plausible explanation.

Boru

(June 8, 2021 at 6:09 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 8, 2021 at 5:50 pm)Helios Wrote: Freewill is never an excuse for the presence of evil

It may not be an excuse, but it’s certainly a plausible explanation.

Boru

I must disagree that freewill is sufficient  to explain evil

(June 8, 2021 at 6:14 pm)Helios Wrote:

(June 8, 2021 at 6:09 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It may not be an excuse, but it’s certainly a plausible explanation.

Boru

I must disagree that freewill is sufficient  to explain evil

What kind of an answer is that. Do you consider yourself some expert philosopher of religion?

(June 8, 2021 at 5:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 8, 2021 at 4:30 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Theists also maintain that the presence of evil (or evil beings like Satan) is compatible with free will.....

Of course it is. What’s not compatible with free will is the Abrahamic god.

Boru

How is that. If an all-powerful God wants his creatures to have free will, then there is no contradiction. And BTW under the theistic assumption it is God who put this moral compass and repugnance toward evil within us. We created laws and jurisdictions to stop evil precisely because of this inner compass.

In any case, the problem of evil has nothing to do with God's existence but only with His omnibenevolence, and Plantinga solved this logical problem decades ago.

Quote:What kind of an answer is that. 

A good one . Unlike the garbage, you spew.

Quote:Do you consider yourself some expert philosopher of religion?

I'm an expert in seeing apologist bullshit and responding to it accordingly. 

But please continue your "clever" commentary. I could use a good laugh.

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Quote:In any case, the problem of evil has nothing to do with God's existence but only with His omnibenevolence, and Plantinga solved this logical problem decades ago. 

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!

GOAT MAN DIDN'T "SOLVE"DIDDLY!!!

(June 8, 2021 at 6:36 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(June 8, 2021 at 6:14 pm)Helios Wrote: I must disagree that freewill is sufficient  to explain evil

What kind of an answer is that. Do you consider yourself some expert philosopher of religion?

(June 8, 2021 at 5:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Of course it is. What’s not compatible with free will is the Abrahamic god.

Boru

How is that. If an all-powerful God wants his creatures to have free will, then there is no contradiction. And BTW under the theistic assumption it is God who put this moral compass and repugnance toward evil within us. We created laws and jurisdictions to stop evil precisely because of this inner compass.

In any case, the problem of evil has nothing to do with God's existence but only with His omnibenevolence, and Plantinga solved this logical problem decades ago.

The Abrahamic god - by definition - created everything. Choices are things. The consequences of choices are things. If God created everything, then our choices and the consequences thereof are created by God, and freewill isn't possible.

Of course, I suppose it could be argued that God didn't create everything, which would mean that there are things outside of God's control, rendering him something less than all-powerful, but that's a problem for your lot.

Boru

(June 8, 2021 at 6:58 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The Abrahamic god - by definition - created everything. Choices are things. The consequences of choices are things. If God created everything, then our choices and the consequences thereof are created by God, and freewill isn't possible.

This is a non-sequitur. It doesn't follow from the premise that free will is not possible. It's true that all our actions and their consequences are God's creation, but this doesn't mean they contradict the free will he endowed us with. God creates a sequence of actions which are exactly those an individual will undertake with his own free will. There is nothing logically contradictory about this operation, and it's trivial for an all-powerful being to do it.