(June 9, 2021 at 1:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 12:43 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: I worked in fast food before I graduated High School - and started for $1.35 an hour. That' s who is SUPPOSED to be working there - kids - learning job skills and earning some cash. The job skills needed to do the job are nearly nil. A warm body that moves on occasion. You can't expect to make a living doing something that takes 16 hours to learn.

The problem isn't that these jobs don't pay enough - the problem is that the people who are doing them should not be trying to make a living doing these jobs. They should have picked up job skills and moved on to something better paying than minimum wage.

Why shouldn’t someone be able to live off of full time work that only took them “16 hours” to learn? How is that relevant? If they show up on time every day and do the job that is required of them for 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, why don’t they deserve to be able to live from the time they’ve given their employer? How does job skill have anything to do with worthiness of the basic essentials of human life?

That side of the economic argument loves to falsely call liberals "elitists". Truth is the opposite. If one thinks a dishwasher or garbage collector are less worthy of dignity or survival because they didn't move up, they are a holes. 

I worked as a dishwasher at a breakfast place for over 7 years. That was longer than even most of the cooks at that same joint. When I hear OLB's stupid arguments, I know damned well he wouldn't last a month at the position I held. People who argue like that, forget that there is a huge difference between "easy to learn" and "easy to do".  OLB if he had attempted my position on an Easter Sunday when the traffic made "running with the bulls" look like walking a dachshund, he'd cry to his mommy.

Every job takes skill, especially in high traffic. That does not mean everyone should earn the same. He keeps missing that point. It is about stability so that when that worker shows up, they can have the financial survival and equally importantly the mental and physical health to care enough about the job to want to be there. If you give workers stability they are far more likely to care about the job they do when they are there. But if all you do is pay them crappy wages, and treat them like tools and not humans, you are going to have a higher turnover rate.

Needs more used saturn salesman describing the worthlessness of skills that will outlast his own.

(June 9, 2021 at 1:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 12:43 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: I worked in fast food before I graduated High School - and started for $1.35 an hour. That' s who is SUPPOSED to be working there - kids - learning job skills and earning some cash. The job skills needed to do the job are nearly nil. A warm body that moves on occasion. You can't expect to make a living doing something that takes 16 hours to learn.

The problem isn't that these jobs don't pay enough - the problem is that the people who are doing them should not be trying to make a living doing these jobs. They should have picked up job skills and moved on to something better paying than minimum wage.

Why shouldn’t someone be able to live off of full time work that only took them “16 hours” to learn? How is that relevant? If they show up on time every day and do the job that is required of them for 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, why don’t they deserve to be able to live from the time they’ve given their employer? How does job skill have anything to do with worthiness of the basic essentials of human life?

No much on economics, huh?

That's ok.....  I'm betting you're smart enough to learn it. What I am not sure about is if you will look at it dispassionately enough to understand it.

....
It all boils down to this- all wealth is simply a substitute for effort - of work, learning - and not more than just a bit of luck and timing. (Luck = inheritances, marrying into money, ect)


Imagine if you will that you are the only human being on the planet. Everything you have, you would have to supply yourself.

Add people. To get others to expend effort for you - you will have to have something they want from you. 

If you' re the smartest, strongest grunt in the cave - your efforts will be in higher demand.

Sure - our interactions today are more complex - but the theory holds.

Someone who doesn't expend enough effort to support themselves manages to survive only by being parasitic. Consider the amount of work that goes into everything that McD's worker consumes - and you will quickly see that their output of work doesn't even come close...

It's like a kid expecting a college education because they picked up their socks and mowed the lawn....

(June 9, 2021 at 1:16 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 1:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Why shouldn’t someone be able to live off of full time work that only took them “16 hours” to learn? How is that relevant? If they show up on time every day and do the job that is required of them for 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, why don’t they deserve to be able to live from the time they’ve given their employer? How does job skill have anything to do with worthiness of the basic essentials of human life?

That side of the economic argument loves to falsely call liberals "elitists". Truth is the opposite. If one thinks a dishwasher or garbage collector are less worthy of dignity or survival because they didn't move up, they are a holes. 

I worked as a dishwasher at a breakfast place for over 7 years. That was longer than even most of the cooks at that same joint. When I hear OLB's stupid arguments, I know damned well he wouldn't last a month at the position I held. People who argue like that, forget that there is a huge difference between "easy to learn" and "easy to do".  OLB if he had attempted my position on an Easter Sunday when the traffic made "running with the bulls" look like walking a dachshund, he'd cry to his mommy.

Every job takes skill, especially in high traffic. That does not mean everyone should earn the same. He keeps missing that point. It is about stability so that when that worker shows up, they can have the financial survival and equally importantly the mental and physical health to care enough about the job to want to be there. If you give workers stability they are far more likely to care about the job they do when they are there. But if all you do is pay them crappy wages, and treat them like tools and not humans, you are going to have a higher turnover rate.

As a dietitian in a nursing home, my office was right in the middle of the kitchen; the same kitchen I did my food service management rotation in during my internship. Dishwashing is a hard fucking job, and they make dirt for it. It’s really sad.

I think they just expect to be paid for their labor...but a college education would be great too.

(June 9, 2021 at 1:28 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 1:16 pm)Brian37 Wrote: That side of the economic argument loves to falsely call liberals "elitists". Truth is the opposite. If one thinks a dishwasher or garbage collector are less worthy of dignity or survival because they didn't move up, they are a holes. 

I worked as a dishwasher at a breakfast place for over 7 years. That was longer than even most of the cooks at that same joint. When I hear OLB's stupid arguments, I know damned well he wouldn't last a month at the position I held. People who argue like that, forget that there is a huge difference between "easy to learn" and "easy to do".  OLB if he had attempted my position on an Easter Sunday when the traffic made "running with the bulls" look like walking a dachshund, he'd cry to his mommy.

Every job takes skill, especially in high traffic. That does not mean everyone should earn the same. He keeps missing that point. It is about stability so that when that worker shows up, they can have the financial survival and equally importantly the mental and physical health to care enough about the job to want to be there. If you give workers stability they are far more likely to care about the job they do when they are there. But if all you do is pay them crappy wages, and treat them like tools and not humans, you are going to have a higher turnover rate.

As a dietitian in a nursing home, my office was right in the middle of the kitchen; the same kitchen I did my food service management rotation in during my internship. Dishwashing is a hard fucking job, and they make dirt for it. It’s really sad.

Yes it is. That's why dishwashers are better paid - and in many places - split the wait staff's tips.

But again - it's not a job you should consider looking at as a career..... It's a starter job.

(June 9, 2021 at 1:24 pm)onlinebiker Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 1:02 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Why shouldn’t someone be able to live off of full time work that only took them “16 hours” to learn? How is that relevant? If they show up on time every day and do the job that is required of them for 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, why don’t they deserve to be able to live from the time they’ve given their employer? How does job skill have anything to do with worthiness of the basic essentials of human life?

No much on economics, huh?

That's ok.....  I'm betting you're smart enough to learn it. What I am not sure about is if you will look at it dispassionately enough to understand it.

....
It all boils down to this- all wealth is simply a substitute for effort - of work, learning - and not more than just a bit of luck and timing. (Luck = inheritances, marrying into money, ect)


Imagine if you will that you are the only human being on the planet. Everything you have, you would have to supply yourself.

Add people. To get others to expend effort for you - you will have to have something they want from you. 

If you' re the smartest, strongest grunt in the cave - your efforts will be in higher demand.

Sure - our interactions today are more complex - but the theory holds.

Someone who doesn't expend enough effort to support themselves manages to survive only by being parasitic. Consider the amount of work that goes into everything that McD's worker consumes - and you will quickly see that their output of work doesn't even come close...

It's like a kid expecting a college education because they picked up their socks and mowed the lawn....

Well first, all available data shows us that effort and wealth are, in fact, not directly proportional, so you’re just wrong about that. But you’re smart enough to go look that data up yourself. And just because you aren’t a medical doctor or a rocket scientist, that doesn’t mean you don’t expend energy at your job. Are we being selective about what kind of energy counts? Most jobs zap a fair amount of emotional, psychological, and/or physical energy. Some of the “lowest skill” (those we spent the last year calling “essential”) workers suffer some of the highest rates of stress and anxiety at their jobs. Any customer service job, including fast-food work, is draining, and ALL jobs require you expend precious time you can never get back. I’ll ask again: why shouldn’t expenditure of your time in service to an employer who is asking you for it not earn you the basics of human survival?

(June 9, 2021 at 1:28 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 1:16 pm)Brian37 Wrote: That side of the economic argument loves to falsely call liberals "elitists". Truth is the opposite. If one thinks a dishwasher or garbage collector are less worthy of dignity or survival because they didn't move up, they are a holes. 

I worked as a dishwasher at a breakfast place for over 7 years. That was longer than even most of the cooks at that same joint. When I hear OLB's stupid arguments, I know damned well he wouldn't last a month at the position I held. People who argue like that, forget that there is a huge difference between "easy to learn" and "easy to do".  OLB if he had attempted my position on an Easter Sunday when the traffic made "running with the bulls" look like walking a dachshund, he'd cry to his mommy.

Every job takes skill, especially in high traffic. That does not mean everyone should earn the same. He keeps missing that point. It is about stability so that when that worker shows up, they can have the financial survival and equally importantly the mental and physical health to care enough about the job to want to be there. If you give workers stability they are far more likely to care about the job they do when they are there. But if all you do is pay them crappy wages, and treat them like tools and not humans, you are going to have a higher turnover rate.

As a dietitian in a nursing home, my office was right in the middle of the kitchen; the same kitchen I did my food service management rotation in during my internship. Dishwashing is a hard fucking job, and they make dirt for it. It’s really sad.

Thank you. It is not an easy job. Especially when you have pockets of time over time, where the owner wants to save money on supplies, and dishes get broken, and knives and forks get thrown out, and on a slam busy Sunday, you have wait staff dumping their dishes and plates on you, without sorting. But because of the shortage of plates and silverware, you have the cooks shouting at you for this plate or that plate, and still get mad when you explain to them nothing has come off the floor that they need yet.

And especially holidays. We closed at 2pm. But damn, the piles of pots and dishes made Mt Everest blush. 

That job didn't pay well for sure. But I stuck with it because the original owners, when I first started working there, eventually got to the point where they figured out if they let me do my own thing, and didn't micromanage me, I got more done. I think most people value dignity as much as pay. I felt valued there, and that meant a lot to me.

(June 9, 2021 at 1:34 pm)onlinebiker Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 1:28 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: As a dietitian in a nursing home, my office was right in the middle of the kitchen; the same kitchen I did my food service management rotation in during my internship. Dishwashing is a hard fucking job, and they make dirt for it. It’s really sad.

Yes it is. That's why dishwashers are better paid - and in many places - split the wait staff's tips.

But again - it's not a job you should consider looking at as a career..... It's a starter job.

I’m not arguing it should be a career that pulls in 150K a year. I’m arguing you should at least be able to feed, clothe, and shelter yourself and maybe one or two potential offspring. That’s not asking much.

(June 9, 2021 at 1:46 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(June 9, 2021 at 1:34 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Yes it is. That's why dishwashers are better paid - and in many places - split the wait staff's tips.

But again - it's not a job you should consider looking at as a career..... It's a starter job.

I’m not arguing it should be a career that pulls in 70k a year. I’m arguing you should at least be able to feed, clothe, and shelter yourself and maybe one or two potential offspring. That’s not asking much.

He keeps missing that point.

And if I hear "starter job" one more time, I am going to call KIM JONG UN and tell him to nuke the next MFer who uses that.

Who the hell does OLB think works at the retail or fast food joints or collects his garbage when the kids are in HS or college? 

The truth is most people at that level are NOT mere teens or college students working on spring break or during the summer. The majority of those jobs are held by people SUPPORTING FAMILIES.

OLB, I am 54, I have worked retail and food service and delivery all my life. I can tell you that there ARE people in their late 20s, 30s. 40s and 50s and even 60s, that I have worked with in all those years. There is no such thing as a "starter job", there are just jobs.

Remember your bullshit condescension the next time you see an old clerk at Walmart, or middle age order taker at McDonalds, or a middle age waiter/waitress at your favorite restaurant.