Another mental abstraction (non-physical primal existence) then states 'you can't know for sure, it could be, my belief has been validated'.

If it was anything other than God the person's mental status would be questioned.

Well, in this case, it is something other than a god as defined by the op. Bel believes that we can know about the ops gods, and that they're trash...but similarly asserts the impossibility of knowledge over his other thing. Seems to me like we might want to consider a lack of personal possession, and failures of imagination in that event...some way to differentiate between what a claimant doesn't know, and what they couldn't know based on some tick of themselves.....and the comment it ends up getting expressed as, about the exterior world, what other people know, and what was fundamentally knowable or unknowable regardless of who possessed it, if anyone.

What makes the ops god claims accessible, but this claim inaccessible?

(June 22, 2021 at 7:39 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: This is a discussion on an Internet Forum about issues of atheistic takes on the question of "Are there any gods."

We have to talk about gods to have the discussion. If you feel it is not worthwhile...go find a thread that you do find interesting.

Firstly, 'are there any gods' is not really an atheistic question

Perhaps bring some proof to add weight to your question ?  Clearly coming (as you state yourself) to an atheist forum and asking 'are there any gods' is beyond stupid,  and will attract derision unless of course you first bringing something for us to consider as possible evidence of a god.

Perhaps when you talk about a creator god for instance , you could bring some reason to believe there was a creation that we have reason to believe was intelligently made along with it.

And last (but not least) I will comment in any thread I want to.

---

(June 22, 2021 at 10:40 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: @Frank Apisa

There are many, many degrees of certainty between a blind guess and absolute certainty.

That's the point isn't it 'is there a god' is a yes/no question either there is or there is not, But whether it is likely is another question entirely.

I am either a billionaire (something we know does exist and is provable)  or I am not, but the odds are really are against it, I fear so many theists think 'we can't be sure' means a 50/50 chance.

---

(June 22, 2021 at 9:36 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Agnosticism, ruining reality for the rest of us.

Lol

(June 23, 2021 at 7:44 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why not?  I keep seeing this asserted, never explained.

I'm surprised he hasn't come back and tossed religious philosophers at you.

Here's a Kant in your face, ya ninny. Don't make me Aquinas slap you again. I'm gonna Spinoza all over your ass.

(June 22, 2021 at 8:08 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:

(June 22, 2021 at 7:39 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote:

---

I do not have a comprehension issue.

If you do not want to participate in this discussion...go somewhere else.

---

We have some rules - you should read them.  There's a link at the top of the page.

Moderator Notice
Rule 21 - Putting limitations on who is allowed to post in a thread is not allowed...read the rules and govern yourself accordingly.

1) I do not have a comprehension problem.
2) Just so I get this correct...are you saying that telling someone "If you do not want to participate here...go somewhere else"...is LIMITING that person???
Please answer that. I just want to be sure, because there is no way during the last 20+ years of posting that I have EVBER limited anyone from posting in response to me.

---

(June 22, 2021 at 8:59 pm)Ranjr Wrote:

(June 22, 2021 at 7:47 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: Ask your questions if you want to...I will be happy to respond. If you do not want to ask them...just don't ask them.

Was that an open question?  Or one for which you have a pre-set answer?

Of course it was an "open question." I have no pre-set answers for any questions.

---

(June 22, 2021 at 9:24 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(June 22, 2021 at 12:14 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: When I use the word "god" I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF THERE IS SUCH AN ENTITY."

But why does God necessarily must imply a creator?

It doesn't necessarily imply a creator...nor did I suggest it did. I merely described what I am talking about when I am discussing "gods."



Let me ask you this question: if humans one day build a computer that is thousands or even a million times smarter than a human brain - could that computer be considered a God?

If someone wanted to consider it a god...it could be considered a god. If someone wanted to consider YOU to be a god...you would be considered a god (by that person.)

---

(June 22, 2021 at 9:35 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(June 22, 2021 at 7:39 pm)Frank Apisa Wrote: I often give "facts."

I am not saying that atheists are guessing. 

I AM SAYING that people who assert "There are no gods" are guessing. Therer is absolutely no way for anyone to KNOW that there are no gods.

Why do you think there's no way of knowing that there are no gods?

I do not "think" there is no way of knowing that there are no gods...I KNOW there is no way of knowing it.

---

(June 22, 2021 at 9:36 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Agnosticism, ruining reality for the rest of us.

I think agnosticism does ruin theistic and atheistic blind guesses about REALITY.

Good for it.

But that is not the issue being discussed in this thread.

---

(June 22, 2021 at 9:52 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Saying that I don't know something would be agnosticism.  Claiming that it's impossible to know something is an entirely different assertion.  Personally, I think it's a bit of a rabbit hole, but I am interested in how a claim focusing on the individual ends up being insisted as comment on the world at large.

If I ask somebody what the proper weight for some bird is, they might say they don't know.  They have a vague idea or general opinions, but they'd have to get back to me on that, or I'd have to ask someone else, or look somewhere else, if I was looking for a fact.  Maybe two reasonable and well informed people disagree over that fact, even.  Here is our bird weight agnostic and our dueling bird weight gnostics.

A person who says, instead, that no one can know the proper weight for some bird...is making a different claim than any of those three people.

TLDR version...I'm not so sure we can blame the agnostics for ruining reality.  

Okay, I sorta agree, in part. Anyone who says "It is impossible to know if any gods exist" is way over the line. There is no way for anyone to KNOW that it is impossible to know if any gods exist. If any exist, it is at least possible it has a way of verifying its existence.

BUT...and this is a huge BUT...I can say without equivocation that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS.
Think about it. How can one possibly verify that there are NO GODS.?

---

(June 22, 2021 at 10:40 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: @Frank Apisa

There are many, many degrees between a blind guess and absolute certainty.

There are indeed. We agree on that.

(June 23, 2021 at 10:45 am)Frank Apisa Wrote: [quote='The Grand Nudger' pid='2045086' dateline='1624413143']
Saying that I don't know something would be agnosticism.  Claiming that it's impossible to know something is an entirely different assertion.  Personally, I think it's a bit of a rabbit hole, but I am interested in how a claim focusing on the individual ends up being insisted as comment on the world at large.

If I ask somebody what the proper weight for some bird is, they might say they don't know.  They have a vague idea or general opinions, but they'd have to get back to me on that, or I'd have to ask someone else, or look somewhere else, if I was looking for a fact.  Maybe two reasonable and well informed people disagree over that fact, even.  Here is our bird weight agnostic and our dueling bird weight gnostics.

A person who says, instead, that no one can know the proper weight for some bird...is making a different claim than any of those three people.

TLDR version...I'm not so sure we can blame the agnostics for ruining reality.  

Okay, I sorta agree, in part. Anyone who says "It is impossible to know if any gods exist" is way over the line. There is no way for anyone to KNOW that it is impossible to know if any gods exist. If any exist, it is at least possible it has a way of verifying its existence.

BUT...and this is a huge BUT...I can say without equivocation that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS.
Think about it. How can one possibly verify that there are NO GODS.?

Not knowing how one can know that there are no possible gods is not the same as knowing that it is not possible to know that there are no gods. The former seems to be an argument from ignorance, and is invalid. If this is how you know that it is not possible to know that there are no gods, then you do not know. How do you know that I cannot know that there are no gods?

Let me pose a hypothetical. Let's say that I tell you that I have an ironclad deductive argument against the existence of gods. Obviously, you don't know what my argument is. Equally as obvious is that you're claiming that I cannot have an ironclad deductive argument against the existence of gods. So the question becomes, how exactly can you know that I have no ironclad deductive argument against the existence of gods when you don't know what I know?

(June 23, 2021 at 10:45 am)Frank Apisa Wrote:

---

(June 22, 2021 at 9:35 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why do you think there's no way of knowing that there are no gods?

I do not "think" there is no way of knowing that there are no gods...I KNOW there is no way of knowing it.

-and if someone expressed incredulity at this statement, stating that you couldn't possibly know that....?  You'd have questions, wouldn't you?  That's where we're at, I believe.  There are atheists and theists and agnostics alike who all contend that the existence of these things is at least in principle a knowable quantity. You can hear them explain why they know something, or make a claim to that knowledge, and at leat understand why they'd insist as much even if you don;t agree with them on the specific contents of that set. A born again christian might say that god's existence is knowable in a revelatory experience. An atheist might suggest that they got that experience wrong - but this..too, is a claim about an allegedly knowable thing.

Quote:Okay, I sorta agree, in part. Anyone who says "It is impossible to know if any gods exist" is way over the line. There is no way for anyone to KNOW that it is impossible to know if any gods exist. If any exist, it is at least possible it has a way of verifying its existence.

BUT...and this is a huge BUT...I can say without equivocation that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS.
Think about it. How can one possibly verify that there are NO GODS.?

I notice that there are no theistic creator gods in the world, the thing you're asking about..ostensibly. It's a pretty routine process.  I state that I know my name in the same way and for the same reasons.  To me, the idea that we can't know whether or not there's a personal and intervening god which created the world is as absurd as the claim that I couldn't know my own name.  Which is why I ask people who believe as much to explain it, rather than assert it.

Case in point, I asked you -why- you couldn't know whether gods existed, and you merely reasserted the initial claim.  Do you know why...is there any reason at all, or is it just something you've heard said, or some bit of knowledge you don't possess, or some unspoken limit of your own epistemology?  Sort of has to start there. There must be some place where you and I diverge so that each of us, genuinely apprehending the same world in a rational and coherent way, reach wildly disparate conclusions.

(June 23, 2021 at 11:06 am)Angrboda Wrote:

(June 23, 2021 at 10:45 am)Frank Apisa Wrote:

(June 22, 2021 at 9:52 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Saying that I don't know something would be agnosticism.  Claiming that it's impossible to know something is an entirely different assertion.  Personally, I think it's a bit of a rabbit hole, but I am interested in how a claim focusing on the individual ends up being insisted as comment on the world at large.

If I ask somebody what the proper weight for some bird is, they might say they don't know.  They have a vague idea or general opinions, but they'd have to get back to me on that, or I'd have to ask someone else, or look somewhere else, if I was looking for a fact.  Maybe two reasonable and well informed people disagree over that fact, even.  Here is our bird weight agnostic and our dueling bird weight gnostics.

A person who says, instead, that no one can know the proper weight for some bird...is making a different claim than any of those three people.

TLDR version...I'm not so sure we can blame the agnostics for ruining reality.  

Okay, I sorta agree, in part. Anyone who says "It is impossible to know if any gods exist" is way over the line. There is no way for anyone to KNOW that it is impossible to know if any gods exist. If any exist, it is at least possible it has a way of verifying its existence.

BUT...and this is a huge BUT...I can say without equivocation that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO GODS.
Think about it. How can one possibly verify that there are NO GODS.?

Not knowing how one can know that there are no possible gods is not the same as knowing that it is not possible to know that there are no gods.  The former seems to be an argument from ignorance, and is invalid.  If this is how you know that it is not possible to know that there are no gods, then you do not know.  How do you know that I cannot know that there are no gods?

Let me pose a hypothetical.  Let's say that I tell you that I have an ironclad deductive argument against the existence of gods.  Obviously, you don't know what my argument is.  Equally as obvious is that you're claiming that I cannot have an ironclad deductive argument against the existence of gods.  So the question becomes, how exactly can you know that I have no ironclad deductive argument against the existence of gods when you don't know what I know?

I am saying that you CANNOT have an ironclad deductive argument that NO GODS EXIST.

You have a huge advantage over me here. You can show that I am full of Shinola by presenting such an argument.

So...have a go at it.

I do enjoy these fence sitters.

(June 23, 2021 at 10:45 am)Frank Apisa Wrote:

(June 22, 2021 at 8:08 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: We have some rules - you should read them.  There's a link at the top of the page.

Moderator Notice
Rule 21 - Putting limitations on who is allowed to post in a thread is not allowed...read the rules and govern yourself accordingly.

1) I do not have a comprehension problem.
2) Just so I get this correct...are you saying that telling someone "If you do not want to participate here...go somewhere else"...is LIMITING that person???
Please answer that. I just want to be sure, because there is no way during the last 20+ years of posting that I have EVBER limited anyone from posting in response to me.

---

I appears that you can read.  Perhaps you can understand what you read?
I don't care what you did or did not do during your long and surely illustrious career on the Internet.
You can read and abide by the rules here or your participation can be limited by staff.