If a person omits hadiths, then they’ll just pray. How will they pray, why does it matter.. magic book didn’t specify so they needn’t be concerned. It wouldn’t matter how. The belief has a certain ring to it. There are people who don’t believe that genuine faith or a genuine god is interested in triviality.

(July 29, 2021 at 11:32 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If a person omits hadiths, then they’ll just pray.  How will they pray, why does it matter

Well according to Islam, prayer clearly matters, other verses even give indications of some movement that should be performed during prayer : And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship) (2:43)

Clearly one cannot pray as they please. The verse tells us to be steadfast in prayer but doesn't indicate the exact frequency or timing of prayers (again, the five prayers are nowhere in the Qur'an).

Unfortunately for you and Winter, some verses about prayer are much more problematic :

Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind). (2:238)

The Qur'an tells us that there is a middle prayer, Winter tried in a previous thread to come up with the ad hoc number 3 (the number of prayers), so that the second prayer would be the middle prayer, but why not 5 or 7 or 9,.. or any odd number of prayers?

It's clear that, without additional information, there is no way to get even the numbers of prayers straight, let alone how they're performed, and their exact timing. It's just impossible, Qur'anism is unfortunately an impasse.

(July 29, 2021 at 10:49 am)Klorophyll Wrote: All these verses belong to some wartime issue, nothing in them is inherently immoral once you get right all the facts and the context. You can find detailed explanations of what these verses mean on the Internet, you are not the first to misunderstand them/quote them out of context.

I did nothing but quote them. 
I placed them IN NO context. I said nothing about morality or immorality, or facts or context. 
You made up your imaginary context. I've seen all the explanations. 
I quoted NOTHING out of context ... as I provided NO context. 
You are wrong that they are ALL explained in some war context. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Quran
... and in fact the discussions about the violent texts have been extensive and varied, and hotly disagreed upon. 

But by all means, do your superior church lady dance.
Amazing you can't even recognize yourself creating a classic strawman, then arguing against it.

You’ll have to decide which absurd thing you intend to argue Kloro. That magic book tells us how to pray, or that without Hadith we wouldn’t know how to pray.

I’m only pointing out that to a person who doesn’t believe in Hadith..your worries about how, then, to pray - are your own. Not theirs.

The loss of the contents of the Hadith matter as much to a Quran only believer as the loss of the Quran would matter to a Christian.

(July 29, 2021 at 7:15 am)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(July 29, 2021 at 3:52 am)WinterHold Wrote: I only believe in the Quran.
Hadith books are obsolete. Please discuss the main topic or open another specific thread for this matter.

Who cares what you believe. 
Obsolete ? LOL. 
I have plenty of Quran verses I can post, (will do so today) that are just as bad, LOL

"Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl al-Bukhārī (Persian: بخاری‎, ‎) (19 July 810 – 1 September 870), commonly referred to as Imam al-Bukhari or Imam Bukhari,[4] was a Persian[5][6][7] Islamic scholar who was born in Bukhara (early Khorasan and present day Uzbekistan). He compiled the hadith collection known as Sahih al-Bukhari, regarded by Sunni Muslims as the most authentic (sahih) hadith collections. He also wrote other books such as Al-Adab al-Mufrad.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari#cite_note-8][/url]

The VAST majority of Muslims regard the hadith above as "the most authentic'. 
"According to a study in 2015, Islam has 1.8 billion adherents, making up about 24.1% of the world population. Most Muslims are either of two denominations: Sunni (87–90%, roughly 1.6 billion people) or Shia (10–13%, roughly 180–230 million people)"
Nice try. No ... you cannot just dismiss 1.6 BILLION Muslims. Either they are TRUE or they are not TRUE. Saying something is "obsolete" is irrelevant. 
Time you get off your ass and start addressing the HISTORY. 

I'll open a thread when and if I decide to ... I need no advice from you. 
Everything I have posted is relevant to the Quran and the origins of Islam. 
You are simply too uninformed about the subject to even begin to reply to anything. 

So far, you're batting zero. It's so hilarious that instead of addressing the FACTS, you try to get me banned, and spout (incorrectly) the rules.
You're nothing but a joke.

Then post the verses you say are "as bad", what are you afraid of? are you waiting for permission to do so?
Here I'll make it easy for you, here's the full Quran:

https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/

Choose your verse and post it 

As for the vast majority of Muslims, I don't care about them really, they already turned Mecca into Las Vegas, already sold their religion to become vessels to foreign superpowers, already invented Wahhabism and Shiite twelver extreme versions of Islam, so it's more of practicing this verse from the Quran instead for me:

Quote:Sura 5, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 104 )   And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," they say, "Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers." Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided?

( 105 )   O you who have believed, upon you is [responsibility for] yourselves. Those who have gone astray will not harm you when you have been guided. To Allah is you return all together; then He will inform you of what you used to do.

(July 29, 2021 at 1:00 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: I quoted NOTHING out of context ... as I provided NO context. 

(July 29, 2021 at 1:00 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: You are wrong that they are ALL explained in some war context. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Quran

Pick a verse and discuss it, if you're just going to copypasta some links, I'll copypasta the responses. Sounds fair to me.

(July 29, 2021 at 1:00 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Amazing you can't even recognize yourself creating a classic strawman, then arguing against it.

Amazing how you can't even formulate a complete sentence explaining why you think there is some unjustified violence in the Qur'an

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(July 29, 2021 at 1:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You’ll have to decide which absurd thing you intend to argue Kloro.  That magic book tells us how to pray, or that without Hadith we wouldn’t know how to pray.

I’m only pointing out that to a person who doesn’t believe in Hadith..your worries about how, then, to pray - are your own.  Not theirs.

The loss of the contents of the Hadith matter as much to a Quran only believer as the loss of the Quran would matter to a Christian.

I'm sorry but is it difficult for you to understand that a Muslim should really really know how to pray ? The person who doesn't believe in hadiths still believes in the utility of prayer, which brings them back to the hadiths. It really isn't difficult.

(July 29, 2021 at 10:35 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: I would like to know EXACTLY on what date the hadith books became obsolete, and who decided that.

Fine, open a specific organized topic and don't repeat Anis Sharosh obscene act with Deedat 

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(July 29, 2021 at 6:01 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(July 28, 2021 at 11:14 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Bukhari

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
""Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.
Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.
Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).
Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.
Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.
Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.
Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.
Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.
Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.
Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "
Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).
Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.
Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.
Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

(July 29, 2021 at 5:09 am)WinterHold Wrote: Feeding trolls is not allowed.

Who says feeding trolls is not allowed? Of course it’s allowed.

Bucky is neither a troll nor a sock. In fact, no one (so far) in this thread has broken any rules.

Boru

Wikipedia has a very nice article about trolls:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Quote:In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as social media (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.), a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses,[2] or  others' perception.

Don't feed these bastards 

(July 29, 2021 at 6:42 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(July 29, 2021 at 10:35 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: I would like to know EXACTLY on what date the hadith books became obsolete, and who decided that.

Fine, open a specific organized topic and don't repeat Anis Sharosh obscene act with Deedat 

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(July 29, 2021 at 6:01 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Who says feeding trolls is not allowed? Of course it’s allowed.

Bucky is neither a troll nor a sock. In fact, no one (so far) in this thread has broken any rules.

Boru

Wikipedia has a very nice article about trolls:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Quote:In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as social media (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.), a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses,[2] or  others' perception.

Don't feed these bastards 

Trolls like you? Posting thread after thread of Quranic Refelctions on an atheist forum....seems trollish to me.

And just for the record:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-63096.html

Quote:[Quranic Reflection]: On reading the Quran..

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(July 29, 2021 at 6:58 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:

(July 29, 2021 at 6:42 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Fine, open a specific organized topic and don't repeat Anis Sharosh obscene act with Deedat 

---

Wikipedia has a very nice article about trolls:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll



Don't feed these bastards 

Trolls like you?  Posting thread after thread of Quranic Refelctions on an atheist forum....seems trollish to me.

No, I'm posting in the "Islamic section" in an "atheist forum". please if you have a problem with it remove the Islamic section altogether or post a warning in top preventing Quranic reflections.

(July 29, 2021 at 6:59 pm)WinterHold Wrote: And just for the record:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-63096.html

Quote:[Quranic Reflection]: On reading the Quran..

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(July 29, 2021 at 6:58 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Trolls like you?  Posting thread after thread of Quranic Refelctions on an atheist forum....seems trollish to me.

No, I'm posting in the "Islamic section" in an "atheist forum". please if you have a problem with it remove the Islamic section altogether or post a warning in top preventing Quranic reflections.

If you are going to post on this forum, you need to expect people to respond. And when they respond in a way you don't like, that does not make them a troll or a sock or a spammer.

Stop acting like you are in charge...you aren't.