Quote:And how do you assess the probability of each?  I don't know, and I doubt you do either. 

There is zero credible evidence to even consider this option you might as well say it was Aliens 

Quote:The arguments I've seen make both possible.  If precursor viruses were found in animals, it might rule out the lab idea, but so far none have been found.  This is truly a novel virus with two major genetic modifications that make it perfect for creating a human pandemic.  A virus with only one of those modifications must be prevalent in animals that live around humans for this to happen naturally.  They haven't found it.  Of course, China claims this means the virus didn't even come from China -- but it is also a possibility that it could be created by gain-of-function research.

Just because we haven't the animal doesn't mean it's not there a million creatures could have carried the virus and there no evidence it's the result of gain-of-function research or any other kind of research.

Quote:Did The Wuhan Lab even do this research? 

Again there is no evidence 

Quote: If no, then the lab theory is bunk, leak or not. 

Again there is no evidence 

Quote: Why can't China let people investigate? 

Maybe because belief were looking for an already pre-established conclusion and don't trust outside investigations 

Quote: I can think of 3 reasons -- pride, they do other shady stuff they don't want known, or they know its the source.

Or what suggest above 

Quote:I'm not aware of any recent scientist that has come out and said the lab-leak is impossible.

Ancient aliens are also not impossible. Not impossible is a shoddy standard of evidence.

Quote:  I haven't even heard them say "highly unlikely".

I have 

Quote:  I've only heard that most continue to think the natural origin is more likely - but who knows until more viral evidence is found.

Till there is an actual reason to give the nonsense a hearing it remains quackery

(August 30, 2021 at 8:40 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(August 30, 2021 at 3:49 pm)Helios Wrote: I disagree

And how do you assess the probability of each?  I don't know, and I doubt you do either. 

The arguments I've seen make both possible.  If precursor viruses were found in animals, it might rule out the lab idea, but so far none have been found.  This is truly a novel virus with two major genetic modifications that make it perfect for creating a human pandemic.  A virus with only one of those modifications must be prevalent in animals that live around humans for this to happen naturally.  They haven't found it.  Of course, China claims this means the virus didn't even come from China -- but it is also a possibility that it could be created by gain-of-function research.

Did The Wuhan Lab even do this research?  If no, then the lab theory is bunk, leak or not.  Why can't China let people investigate?  I can think of 3 reasons -- pride, they do other shady stuff they don't want known, or they know its the source.

I'm not aware of any recent scientist that has come out and said the lab-leak is impossible.  I haven't even heard them say "highly unlikely".  I've only heard that most continue to think the natural origin is more likely - but who knows until more viral evidence is found.

Find something from an actual scientist with credentials...not Russell Brand who is an apeshit, batshit actor of sorts.

We'll go from there.

And isn't freaking Bret Weinstein

Unlike authoritative news, Russell Brand does not work for a corporation as far as I know, he is very woke, in a good way, and he is not compromised or knowingly pushing propaganda like MSM does as far as I can tell.

And of course people attack Russell rather than address the actual information. There are a hundred different sources out there anyone could quickly google, that report the same thing. If you actually think these documents about security and air conditioning were forged to try to frame the Wuhan Lab, go ahead and say that. That would make you the conspiracy theorist.

Could it just be a coincidence that the WIV wanted to upgrade their security and air filtration right around the same time the virus started spreading around? It could be. There were coincidences on 9/11 too, but that doesn't necessarily mean that some people associated with the WTC or Pentagon were in on it.

This recent news of course doesn't prove things one way or the other, but it is just one more thing piled on top of all of the other stuff posted over the past year that makes this start to look more and more like a lab leak. The former head of the CDC, CNN's own Dr. Sanjay Gupta and many others have already said many months ago that a lab leak is completely plausible or even highly likely.

Sungala, remember when the Iranians shot that passenger plane out of the sky not long ago, because they thought it could have been an American plane? The MSM pushed the narrative that the plane just crashed on its' own, and that the Iranian missiles had nothing to do with it. It was obvious from the start that the Iranian missiles were probably what downed the plane, but the media wouldn't even speculate on that. People were having their comments removed from MSM comment sections for making the obvious connection. It was considered a conspiracy theory. Not long after that, the news came out that it really was the Iranian missiles that downed the plane. Duh. Of course that was highly likely. The same goes for the lab leak. You don't have to be the brightest person to put 2 and 2 together, like John Stewart said recently. If you see an explosion of chocolaty goodness next to a chocolate factory in Hershey Pennsylvania, you might not want to rule out the chocolate factory right off the bat. The chocolate factory might be a little more probable of an answer than aliens too, btw.

1. A long rambly collection of nonsense and trying to defend using a comedian on medical issues

2. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is a moron 

There is no credible evidence Lab Leak derp.

(August 30, 2021 at 10:33 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Unlike authoritative news, Russell Brand does not work for a corporation as far as I know, he is very woke, in a good way, and he is not compromised or knowingly pushing propaganda like MSM does as far as I can tell.

And of course people attack Russell rather than address the actual information. There are a hundred different sources out there anyone could quickly google, that report the same thing. If you actually think these documents about security and air conditioning were forged to try to frame the Wuhan Lab, go ahead and say that. That would make you the conspiracy theorist.

Could it just be a coincidence that the WIV wanted to upgrade their security and air filtration right around the same time the virus started spreading around? It could be. There were coincidences on 9/11 too, but that doesn't necessarily mean that some people associated with the WTC or Pentagon were in on it.

This recent news of course doesn't prove things one way or the other, but it is just one more thing piled on top of all of the other stuff posted over the past year that makes this start to look more and more like a lab leak. The former head of the CDC, CNN's own Dr. Sanjay Gupta and many others have already said many months ago that a lab leak is completely plausible or even highly likely.

Sungala, remember when the Iranians shot that passenger plane out of the sky not long ago, because they thought it could have been an American plane? The MSM pushed the narrative that the plane just crashed on its' own, and that the Iranian missiles had nothing to do with it. It was obvious from the start that the Iranian missiles were probably what downed the plane, but the media wouldn't even speculate on that. People were having their comments removed from MSM comment sections for making the obvious connection. It was considered a conspiracy theory. Not long after that, the news came out that it really was the Iranian missiles that downed the plane. Duh. Of course that was highly likely. The same goes for the lab leak. You don't have to be the brightest person to put 2 and 2 together, like John Stewart said recently. If you see an explosion of chocolaty goodness next to a chocolate factory in Hershey Pennsylvania, you might not want to rule out the chocolate factory right off the bat. The chocolate factory might be a little more probable of an answer than aliens too, btw.

I don't care how much Russell Brand turns you on, he is not a scientist.

He's barely an actor.

When did I say he's a scientist? Russell Brand is alternative media, and better than basically all MSM. He was reading the GOP report and telling us what's in the report. He did not write the report. He is reporting the news. He's likes a MSM talking head, but only without the propaganda pushing and without being controlled and given a script to read by billion dollar corporations.

Nope he's a nutter pushing nutter idea's 

(August 30, 2021 at 9:40 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Find something from an actual scientist with credentials...not Russell Brand who is an apeshit, batshit actor of sorts.

We'll go from there.

Russel Brand was merely talking about a GOP report.  You know, half the U.S. government.  He wasn't even coming to a conclusion himself.  His main point was that lack of transparency causes people to come up with their own conclusions.

Since everyone here seems to be an expert, what do you know that the scientists don't?

Nature - The COVID lab-leak hypothesis

Most scientists think a natural origin is likely, but they don't know for sure. I love how everyone here seems to know. Personally, I've thought a 10:1 odds for a natural origin, but my estimate doesn't count. I don't win at horse betting either.

(August 30, 2021 at 11:59 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Since everyone here seems to be an expert, what do you know that the scientists don't?

Nobody is the expert, so what's the point of talking about it? Just to point fingers and accuse without the evidence. GOP did conclude that it came from a Chinese lab, but without any evidence. Politicians in China concluded it came from Pentagon, also without any evidence.