(September 26, 2021 at 5:58 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ^^That.

Prayer can be very broadly divided into three categories: intercessory (asking for stuff); thanksgiving (thanking God for good things); and praise (telling God how great he is).

Intercessory prayer is essentially asking God to alter things on your behalf and at your request. This smacks of hubris - God is supposed to change the immutable divine plans simply because someone drowning in sin asks him to do so? Who do you think you are?

Giving thanks to God seems equally pointless. If we take it as read that God can’t act against his own nature, anything you get from God (good or bad) is inevitable. 

Prayers of praise are probably the silliest. God is omniscient - he knows how great he is and he knows you we’re going to tell him how great you think he is. Seems like a waste.

Boru

As a non-theist, I've thought about these 3 categories, and I've decided that thanksgiving is the only valid one of the 3.

If a god existed he wouldn't be thinking "hey, I gave Bob a Mercedes and he didn't thank me.  Well, fuck him, he gets a Vespa next time".  If a god didn't exist, there is no-one listening to the thanks, so why would it be valid?

I think that taking stock of what you are thankful for in life is a good exercise.  Thankfulness as a mindset (IMO) can reduce depression and increase empathy.

(September 27, 2021 at 12:21 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(September 26, 2021 at 5:58 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ^^That.

Prayer can be very broadly divided into three categories: intercessory (asking for stuff); thanksgiving (thanking God for good things); and praise (telling God how great he is).

Intercessory prayer is essentially asking God to alter things on your behalf and at your request. This smacks of hubris - God is supposed to change the immutable divine plans simply because someone drowning in sin asks him to do so? Who do you think you are?

Giving thanks to God seems equally pointless. If we take it as read that God can’t act against his own nature, anything you get from God (good or bad) is inevitable. 

Prayers of praise are probably the silliest. God is omniscient - he knows how great he is and he knows you we’re going to tell him how great you think he is. Seems like a waste.

Boru

As a non-theist, I've thought about these 3 categories, and I've decided that thanksgiving is the only valid one of the 3.

If a god existed he wouldn't be thinking "hey, I gave Bob a Mercedes and he didn't thank me.  Well, fuck him, he gets a Vespa next time".  If a god didn't exist, there is no-one listening to the thanks, so why would it be valid?

I think that taking stock of what you are thankful for in life is a good exercise.  Thankfulness as a mindset (IMO) can reduce depression and increase empathy.

I agree that thankfulness in and of itself is a proper attitude. But thanking God for your good fortune is kind of like writing a thank-you note to gravity for keeping you on the ground.

Boru

Unfortunately, I thing humans ebb and flow. It is absolutely true, that if humans never changed their minds about religion or deities we'd be still stuck in the caves. But religion isn't going away. I'd rather have Martin Luther King Jr praying for me, than Osama Bin Laden praying for my death, much less acting on it.

I just wish the majority of my fellow humans would realize, that we only have one home, this planet, to live on. Short term dominance over others, will never constitute an eternity of dominance. Humans worldwide, need to accept the only winning combination to extend our species ride, is cooperation, not confrontation.

I'm beginning to be sorry that he's dead.

(September 26, 2021 at 6:45 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: The historical reason it promotes prayer is that Christianity was modelled after mystery cults that were popular in Roman times. As a selling point, these cults would often claim their pet god would do things for you. You also have prayer begging for God to intercede on one's behalf in Judaism, but it's nowhere near as obnoxious as what is described in the New Testament.

Judaism is more like: "Knock... and MAYBE... if God is in a good mood, it will be opened. But probably not." Jews I've communicated to about this site gratitude as the primary motivation for prayer. I'm not sure if this is true, or that's what they said because it sounds good.

I would say that praying to a god to bring you good luck and give you stuff and not give you disease is something very ancient.
Primitive humans did not know how nature operates. When some family member was ill, there was very little to do. Perhaps the priest/doctor would prepare a drink for you, rub something on you, say some magical words and he would say that the rest is up to the gods.

These days, if you get a cut, you clean the area with soap and apply ethanol or some antiseptic and put a band-aid.
I imagine that no european calls the priest for that.

When you get cancer, people know that there is significant chance they will die (depends on the cancer as well). They try every solution: going to the hospital and calling their priest and having family members pray.
Once medical science masters cancer, all types of cancer, the need for the priest will go down.

When you get a tooth infection, you go to your dentist, he’ll prescribe an antibiotic. Once the infection is eliminated, you can go back to him and he’ll repair your tooth.
I imagine that no european calls the priest for that.

I think that a lot of christians still sit at dinner time with their family and they thank god for putting food on their table.
The reality is that food is plentiful. If you are jobless and poor, there are social programs.
Nobody starves to death in european countries. ~200 y ago was a very different world for Europe.

(September 26, 2021 at 4:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: I took a quick look at it.
The study mostly doesn't mention particular religion, and when it does it's Muslims.

Also, it doesn't mean that religion is on the rise but that among already religious people the younger pray more.

The questionnaire is too limited. They are only asking if they pray at least once a month and if they go to church.
It isn't about belief at all.
The elderly are more religious (christian) even if they don't pray and don't go to church.

The text says:
“Chris Hopkins added that there were "a few theories" as to why young people made up such a large proportion of the religious landscape.”

^^^^^This is false info.

The text says:
“It also found 49% of the younger age group attend a place of worship every month, compared with 16% of over-55s.”

^^^^^Show me a picture or video of these churches where the majority are 18 to 34 y of age.

The text says:
“"It is becoming increasingly clear that there is actually a growing spirituality in the nation," he said.”

^^^^^I did not see any indication of growth.
Also, this statistic is done during COVID-19, which isn’t the best time.


According to
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/...-religion/
“In March, driven by parishioner deaths and lack of interest, the U.K. Mennonites held their last collective service.”

“There have long been predictions that religion would fade from relevancy as the world modernizes, but all the recent surveys are finding that it’s happening startlingly fast. France will have a majority secular population soon. So will the Netherlands and New Zealand. The United Kingdom and Australia will soon lose Christian majorities.”

(September 26, 2021 at 6:45 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: The historical reason it promotes prayer is that Christianity was modelled after mystery cults that were popular in Roman times. As a selling point, these cults would often claim their pet god would do things for you. You also have prayer begging for God to intercede on one's behalf in Judaism, but it's nowhere near as obnoxious as what is described in the New Testament.

Judaism is more like: "Knock... and MAYBE... if God is in a good mood, it will be opened. But probably not." Jews I've communicated to about this site gratitude as the primary motivation for prayer. I'm not sure if this is true, or that's what they said because it sounds good.

Roman religion was always very transactional. Also, the mystery religions were more of a Graeco-Egyptian thing than a Roman one. Yes, plenty of Romans took part, but they eere always based in Greece or Hellenized Egypt.