Additionally, are needful things moral things - such that because someone needs something, that thing is then moral? I don't think so, but if so..there would be at least some things that don't or haven't changed, as there are human needs that have been present and consistent for as long as there have been humans.

This might account for the rare human universals.

(October 11, 2021 at 7:07 pm)ayost Wrote: [quote="pocaracas" pid='2068548' dateline='1634031364']
Yay!! You finally got the quotes right!!

I’m trying! Hahaha

I can accept that morality is societal if you can fully commit to your worldview.

For instance, if you can say that slavery in America was moral at the time. I get that society changed, but as long as you can admit that at that time slavery was the moral good because society said it was. Obviously, once times changed, slavery became immoral.

If you can say that stoning homosexuals in Israel 3500 years ago in the OT was moral.

If you can say Aztecs cutting the hearts out of sacrifices to the sun god was moral.

If you can say that in Canaan 3500 years ago burning children alive as a sacrifice to Moloch was moral.

If you can say young boys in the Sambia tribe being required to suck off old men until the young boys reach puberty is moral.

If you can say Hindu cannibals stealing dead bodies to eat the flesh is moral.

If you can say rounding up and torturing Uyghur Muslims is China is moral.

If you can say that criminalizing homosexuality in the past in America was moral.

If you can commit and say that all of these types of things were moral goods at the time they happened because society said they are good I’ll at least believe that you believe what you’re saying. I’m not saying you have to want to do those things. I’m just saying you have to say those things are moral goods for those people. I just need you to become the monster you’re trying to stop with your societal moral system.

(October 12, 2021 at 6:19 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(October 12, 2021 at 5:56 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Morality is something that changes with the needs of the people and comes with compassion - like the abolition of slavery. Morality should be democratic.

While when it comes to Christianity, morality is supposed to be unchanged from what some men wrote thousands of years ago in the Bible and claimed to have heard it from God. Which clearly does not work.

I don't know if democratic is the best way to go. I'd say organically, which shows how slow it does change.

In democratic countries, laws are made democratically, and doing anything that is not against the law is considered morality acceptable by the society.

(October 12, 2021 at 6:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The trouble with expecting to Abrahamic god to ‘get morality right’ is twofold:

-If God freely determines what constitutes moral behaviour, then morality is arbitrary and God can change it on a whim. Since we can do that ourselves, God serves no ultimate moral purpose.

-If morality emanates from God due to his intrinsically moral nature, he’s doing a rotten job of leading by example. How can we be expected to follow the moral precepts of a god who, according to those same precepts, behaves immorally?

Boru

Google will answer this for you.

(October 12, 2021 at 7:48 am)ayost Wrote:

(October 12, 2021 at 5:36 am)pocaracas Wrote: Yay!! You finally got the quotes right!!

I’m trying! Hahaha

I can accept that morality is societal if you can fully commit to your worldview.

For instance, if you can say that slavery in America was moral at the time. I get that society changed, but as long as you can admit that at that time slavery was the moral good because society said it was. Obviously, once times changed, slavery became immoral.

If you can say that stoning homosexuals in Israel 3500 years ago in the OT was moral.

If you can say Aztecs cutting the hearts out of sacrifices to the sun god was moral.

If you can say that in Canaan 3500 years ago burning children alive as a sacrifice to Moloch was moral.

If you can say young boys in the Sambia tribe being required to suck off old men until the young boys reach puberty is moral.

If you can say Hindu cannibals stealing dead bodies to eat the flesh is moral.

If you can say rounding up and torturing Uyghur Muslims is China is moral.

If you can say that criminalizing homosexuality in the past in America was moral.

If you can commit and say that all of these types of things were moral goods at the time they happened because society said they are good I’ll at least believe that you believe what you’re saying. I’m not saying you have to want to do those things. I’m just saying you have to say those things are moral goods for those people. I just need you to become the monster you’re trying to stop with your societal moral system.

As I did not live in any of those societies, nor do I know enough about them, I cannot judge them the way you want me to.

My judgement would arise from me applying my societal morality to those instances and finding them, as you do, monstrous.


How would you like to add to your list some of the things that, I guess, according to you, as follower of the whole bible, should be moral?

Colossians 4:1 ESV
Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
Ephesians 6:5 ESV
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

Will google answer whether your god's moral proclamations are based on any facts of a matter?

(October 12, 2021 at 6:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The trouble with expecting to Abrahamic god to ‘get morality right’ is twofold:

-If God freely determines what constitutes moral behaviour, then morality is arbitrary and God can change it on a whim. Since we can do that ourselves, God serves no ultimate moral purpose.

-If morality emanates from God due to his intrinsically moral nature, he’s doing a rotten job of leading by example. How can we be expected to follow the moral precepts of a god who, according to those same precepts, behaves immorally?

Boru

Best indication that god was made by humans.

(October 12, 2021 at 7:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(October 12, 2021 at 6:19 am)pocaracas Wrote: I don't know if democratic is the best way to go. I'd say organically, which shows how slow it does change.

In democratic countries, laws are made democratically, and doing anything that is not against the law is considered morality acceptable by the society.

I would say that this is true for some things and untrue for others.
I submit adultery as evidence of something widely considered immoral, but allowed by most western countries' laws.

Evading taxes. Probably not immoral, definitely illegal.

(October 11, 2021 at 1:49 pm)ayost Wrote: I asked you in a previous post if you believed in evolution and you said yes.

Also the oldest atheist trick in the book is to stay worldview fluid so you can't be pinned down to believing anything because as soon as you do I will dismantle it.

Yeah, Nudge was super-slippery not telling you his worldview when you never asked him what it was.