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Why does science always upstage God?
RE: Why does science always upstage God?
Will google answer whether your god's moral proclamations are based on any facts of a matter?
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
(October 12, 2021 at 6:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The trouble with expecting to Abrahamic god to ‘get morality right’ is twofold:

-If God freely determines what constitutes moral behaviour, then morality is arbitrary and God can change it on a whim. Since we can do that ourselves, God serves no ultimate moral purpose.

-If morality emanates from God due to his intrinsically moral nature, he’s doing a rotten job of leading by example. How can we be expected to follow the moral precepts of a god who, according to those same precepts, behaves immorally?

Boru

Best indication that god was made by humans.
Light my candles in a daze cause I've found god


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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
(October 12, 2021 at 7:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(October 12, 2021 at 6:19 am)pocaracas Wrote: I don't know if democratic is the best way to go. I'd say organically, which shows how slow it does change.

In democratic countries, laws are made democratically, and doing anything that is not against the law is considered morality acceptable by the society.

I would say that this is true for some things and untrue for others.
I submit adultery as evidence of something widely considered immoral, but allowed by most western countries' laws.
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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
Evading taxes. Probably not immoral, definitely illegal.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
(October 11, 2021 at 1:49 pm)ayost Wrote: I asked you in a previous post if you believed in evolution and you said yes.

Also the oldest atheist trick in the book is to stay worldview fluid so you can't be pinned down to believing anything because as soon as you do I will dismantle it.

Yeah, Nudge was super-slippery not telling you his worldview when you never asked him what it was. Dodgy
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
(October 12, 2021 at 10:03 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(October 11, 2021 at 1:49 pm)ayost Wrote: I asked you in a previous post if you believed in evolution and you said yes.

Also the oldest atheist trick in the book is to stay worldview fluid so you can't be pinned down to believing anything because as soon as you do I will dismantle it.

Yeah, Nudge was super-slippery not telling you his worldview when you never asked him what it was.  Dodgy

Huh...I missed that. We have a book?

Who knew?
                              It's like herding cats around here...feral cats, at that.                                                          
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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
(October 12, 2021 at 10:03 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(October 11, 2021 at 1:49 pm)ayost Wrote: I asked you in a previous post if you believed in evolution and you said yes.

Also the oldest atheist trick in the book is to stay worldview fluid so you can't be pinned down to believing anything because as soon as you do I will dismantle it.

Yeah, Nudge was super-slippery not telling you his worldview when you never asked him what it was.  Dodgy

Moot point now, since I told him exactly what my moral worldview was.  What we now know is that he thinks his infallible god shares my moral view..but also that my moral view is bankrupt.

Real superbrain we're dealing with.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
(October 11, 2021 at 8:10 pm)ayost Wrote: I already granted that there’s not God to start this conversation so that we could fully explore the inconsistency in the atheist moral worldview.

FFS, there isn't an 'atheist moral worldview'. And if you thought about it for one minute, you'd realize there isn't a 'theist moral worldview either'. If all you know about a person is that they're a theist or an atheist, you don't have enough information yet to infer their moral worldivew.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Why does science always upstage God?
He's just repeating things his witchdoctor told him while shaking a rattle in our general direction. Same nut that told him god had exposed himself to everyone, like a common sex crimer.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
Reply
RE: Why does science always upstage God?
(October 12, 2021 at 7:59 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(October 12, 2021 at 7:48 am)ayost Wrote: I’m trying! Hahaha

I can accept that morality is societal if you can fully commit to your worldview.

For instance, if you can say that slavery in America was moral at the time. I get that society changed, but as long as you can admit that at that time slavery was the moral good because society said it was. Obviously, once times changed, slavery became immoral.

If you can say that stoning homosexuals in Israel 3500 years ago in the OT was moral.

If you can say Aztecs cutting the hearts out of sacrifices to the sun god was moral.

If you can say that in Canaan 3500 years ago burning children alive as a sacrifice to Moloch was moral.

If you can say young boys in the Sambia tribe being required to suck off old men until the young boys reach puberty is moral.

If you can say Hindu cannibals stealing dead bodies to eat the flesh is moral.

If you can say rounding up and torturing Uyghur Muslims is China is moral.

If you can say that criminalizing homosexuality in the past in America was moral.

If you can commit and say that all of these types of things were moral goods at the time they happened because society said they are good I’ll at least believe that you believe what you’re saying. I’m not saying you have to want to do those things. I’m just saying you have to say those things are moral goods for those people. I just need you to become the monster you’re trying to stop with your societal moral system.

As I did not live in any of those societies, nor do I know enough about them, I cannot judge them the way you want me to.

My judgement would arise from me applying my societal morality to those instances and finding them, as you do, monstrous.


How would you like to add  to your list some of the things that, I guess, according to you, as follower of the whole bible, should be moral?

Colossians 4:1 ESV
Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
Ephesians 6:5 ESV
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

I already conceded for the sake of this conversation that we are all atheists so as not to muddy the waters. I really wanted to explore your worldview from your point of view, so if we can talk about these things separately I will answer your question. I just don't want to get into that "Yeah well you do it too" kind of thing. I think the same as you do, that all of those things are heinous acts (except obviously the Bible example, which I'm sure made your eyes roll, haha, but I can explain AND be consistent in my application of my standard, but lets set that aside for just a moment). When you said you can't judge that kind of felt like a dodge.

Consistency is all I'm asking for. Can you see how your system of societal morality fails in that it allows for monstrous behavior to be considered moral? I don't think you societal moral system is completely broken, just that it has the potential to fail miserably when it's used by monsters. Fair enough?

As far as you question about slavery in the Bible I am committed to consistency and it's very important to me to not wiggle or dodge, but to take things head on. So my answer is not all slavery is always immoral. There are moral types of slavery. My justification for this is that Christian's are called to be Christ's slaves. So if all slavery was always immoral all of the time this analogy wouldn't make sense.

For example, the church is called the bride of Christ, husband and wife is a moral relationship. Cheating on your wife is immoral. So it would be like if Paul called us to be the mistress of Christ. That's a sinful relationship so it doesn't make sense for God to call us to relate to him in a sinful way. The analogy breaks down and suddenly I'm confused.

So if I am called to relate to Christ as a slave that means that there is some instance of slavery that isn't immoral.

Contextually, in Biblical times there were many categories of slavery. Enslavement, the capturing of people and keeping them as slaves until they die, was immoral and punishable by death. Economic slavery, where I owe a debt and am ordered into slavery or sell myself into slavery was moral and came with many limitations, including limitations on how long someone could be a slave.
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