(October 29, 2021 at 4:16 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(October 29, 2021 at 6:53 am)brewer Wrote: I can see both sides. And I see failure everywhere on this one.

Prop gun does not mean fake gun, toy gun, it's simply short for property. Maybe the entire industry does not take gun safety seriously enough. I wonder how often they give other potentially lethal 'props' to actors without providing safety training. Apparently Baldwin had none.

The auditors for the studios liability insurance, the union lawyers, and similar interested parties probably have a say in who's "responsible" and who's to "blame"...And those aren't always the same people.

Yep, but at this point I'm still not ruling out criminal. It won't be those ^^^ people.

(October 29, 2021 at 5:04 pm)brewer Wrote:

(October 29, 2021 at 4:16 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The auditors for the studios liability insurance, the union lawyers, and similar interested parties probably have a say in who's "responsible" and who's to "blame"...And those aren't always the same people.

Yep, but at this point I'm still not ruling out criminal. It won't be those ^^^ people.

 Yair. They remind me of auditors. I was an auditor for a few months in the early 1970's. I have heard auditors compared with those blokes who go around after the battle bayoneting the wounded.

It was not a 1 in a trillion accident Alec, you asshole.

More like one in six you negligent prick....



Edit to add


You know the difference between me an the anti gun people?

The anti- gun people trust other people to make life/ death decisions for them. They actually believe that Mr Baldwin is innocent of any wrongdoing because someone told him it was OK to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger.

I wouldn' t.

I would check the gun to see what is in it. Yes- I know the difference between live rounds, blanks and dummy loads - and know the reasons why each would be used. Yes - I know how to load a revolver - any revolver - single action, double action or striker action. (As in a Chiappas Rhino). I also know how to stage the cylinder to have the desired cartridge in battery when cocking. I could do it all blindfolded. Literally.

I also would not point the gun at someone when pulling the trigger. I would point the gun at something just to the left or right of the targeted person. You would not be able to tell that I wasn' t dead on target.

Why?


So I wouldn't " accidentally" kill someone like Mr Baldwin did.

There are no accidents with guns

Only negligence.

If you don' t KNOW how to use them - put the motherfucker down!

(November 1, 2021 at 8:06 am)onlinebiker Wrote: More like one in six you negligent prick....



Edit to add


You know the difference between me an the anti gun people?

The anti- gun people trust other people to make life/ death decisions for them. They actually believe that Mr Baldwin is innocent of any wrongdoing because someone told him it was OK to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger.

I wouldn' t.

I would check the gun to see what is in it. Yes- I know the difference between live rounds, blanks and dummy loads - and know the reasons why each would be used. Yes - I know how to load a revolver - any revolver - single action, double action or striker action. (As in a Chiappas Rhino). I also know how to stage the cylinder to have the desired cartridge in battery when cocking. I could do it all blindfolded. Literally.

I also would not point the gun at someone when pulling the trigger. I would point the gun at something just to the left or right of the targeted person. You would not be able to tell that I wasn' t dead on target.

Why?


So I wouldn't " accidentally" kill someone like Mr Baldwin did.

There are no accidents with guns

Only negligence.

If you don' t KNOW how to use them - put the motherfucker down!

I agree with your sentiment, if not your delivery.  I think you're being a bit too pejorative.  However, it's clear that the root cause of this death is the overall attitude and approach that this production team took with firearms, and perhaps the entire industry.  There are too many moving parts and possible loose ends for anyone to be sure that using a gun on set wouldn't result in injury.  The right approach is to eliminate as many of those as humanly possible and that clearly was not done and I believe everyone involved in the production is at fault.  Baldwyn appears to be the focal point because he's the one who pulled the trigger, but the line of fault only ends with him.  I can't be sure that had he inspected the weapon, he would have recognized the danger, and that's the reason I say the entire approach is flawed.  I hope for the sake of the industry that this event isn't just written off as a fluke and wholesale improvements are made, but that might be a pipe dream.

(November 1, 2021 at 8:06 am)onlinebiker Wrote: I would check the gun to see what is in it. Yes- I know the difference between live rounds, blanks and dummy loads - and know the reasons why each would be used.

On a movie set, there are safety policies.  Not ONE of them are that the actors check their own loads.  The policy is that the actor or another person on set MAY ask the person handing out the guns to prove to them the correct ordinance is in it, but it is 100% the responsibility of the person handing them the gun to make sure it is safe.  No actor can pick a gun off a cart themselves, and no-one except the proper person can give them the gun.

Sure, it is good to have multiple levels of defense, and on a set I'd probably ask the person handing me the gun to prove to me it is safe, but in a safety system, there always has to be one person that is 100% responsible, and it isn't the actors.  If everyone is responsible, then no-one is.  There has to be someone who knows their ass is on the line if something goes wrong.   The AD handed the gun to Baldwin without fully checking it.  He admitted that.  It was primarily his responsibility.  He is going to be civilly liable, if not criminally.

Please - show me a document or law that says actors must check the loads of prop guns.  Also show me where they have to check the hand grenades aren't real, or make sure the pyrotechnics are safe.  There isn't one.  They aren't gun owners, aficionados, or using the gun for self defense.  It isn't their gun.

If I was on a movie wet with Biker, and he said "my gun is good", I wouldn't believe him.  If I saw him pulling out bullets and putting them back in, I'd say "fuck that, I want a professional to reload it".  That's why professionals exist, and it is their primary job to ensure safety.

Yeah... Boy - good thing they had a " professional" on set....




I been doing this shit TWICE as long as Mr Baldwin's paid " professional" has been alive. 

I haven' t gotten anybody shot.

You want to go with their professional?


Your funeral bub....

(November 1, 2021 at 2:03 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Yeah... Boy - good thing they had a " professional" on set....

It turns out they didn't.  Both the AD and Armorer were not professionals.  THAT is what the production, and by extension Baldwin, will likely be liable for.

(November 1, 2021 at 1:56 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Please - show me a document or law that says actors must check the loads of prop guns.  Also show me where they have to check the hand grenades aren't real, or make sure the pyrotechnics are safe.  There isn't one.  They aren't gun owners, aficionados, or using the gun for self defense.  It isn't their gun.

This is precisely the point I made before.  Movie/TV productions use lots of props besides handguns, so there's no logic that could be valid to say you must do this with a handgun but nothing else that could be dangerous.  And if that was the case, then by his logic, every actor that has to handle a potentially dangerous device, be it real or simulated, would have to be an expert in that field.  Just not a reasonable thing to expect.  But everything we argue about here is irrelevant because there are already laws that will cover this and determine who is a fault and what happens next.

I repeat it's not Baldwin's freaking job to check his prop gun nor is it's an actor's job to check any prop. And yes there are accidence with guns as again it's NOT his job to check the gun.