(February 26, 2022 at 11:07 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(February 26, 2022 at 10:26 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: waaaaaa,  we don’t get any credit, waaaaaaaa

Is that all you have? Or do you have actual arguments as to why invading a sovereign state is a-ok, under some very specific conditions, or for very special people?

Like if it weren’t ok that means Russia would be worse than the US?  We Who made up bullshit to invent the necessity of invading Iraq?

But as it were real Necessity does trump OKness.   A nuclear state intending to maintain its ability  to pursue independent foreign policy has the necessity of protecting the credibility of nuclear arsenal.   That is a ground reality that trumps any arbitrary perception of OKness.   Ask why Kennedy thought it was ok to prepare to invade cuba if the Soviets didn’t move nuclear weapons out of three?  Cuba was a sovereign state too and Cubans wanted them there, wanted them more than the Soviets did. 

You might as well ask if it is ok for gravity to pull a falling virtuous person, virtuous in your eyes but perhaps not in eyes of other by the way, to his death. 

It is not as if Russia was closed to any other means to address this this necessity short of an invasion.   

They made their concern clear, and it wasn’t for the first time when they did so in the immediate month before this invasion,    It was we who willfully closed off every option short of war because it would look bad for NATO, and we though there is an off chance that Russia might back down and thus stop being able to pursue an independent foreign policy, which is what we wanted all along.     We did those knowing this will leave war and invasion Russia’s only real option other than giving up its ability to conduct independent foreign policy.

We basically treated Ukraine as an expendable pawn to see if we can use it to largely eliminate the credibility of Russia’s land based nuclear deterrence and with it Russia’s ability to act as an international play not susceptible to our nuclear blackmail.

We are now alternating between whining and rage because they were not susceptible to our blackmail.

Here again, the russian state begs to differ in policy, statement, and act. There are no "other means" to be open to in the pursuit of territorial expansion by reconstituting the borders of the former soviet empire.

You might note that we have not reinvaded and reoccupied any number of places that have been held at various times and described as our american empire. If we're deadset on contextualizing this with the us as a referent, it would seem that most nations prefer (and have good reason to prefer) that other nations, even former imperial powers or especially former imperial powers respect the present realities of international borders and sovereignty. Hell, it might even be nice if they at least tipped the hat to international law. True of the us, true of russia, true of any number of european countries.

(February 26, 2022 at 12:40 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Here again, the russian state begs to differ in policy, statement, and act.  There are no "other means" to be open to in the pursuit of territorial expansion by reconstituting the borders of the former soviet empire.

Bullshit, they offered NATO an agreement that Ukraine won’t join the NATO.  NATO said no, because NATO charter blah blah blah, as if an outside power feeling existential threat from you should naturally prioritize your charter in whom they had no part, over their own existential interest as great power.

Yes. The russian state offers many agreements. I believe they're offering Ukraine one right now, and, ofc, they offered many in good faith as they prepared for their invasion.

Yes, we offered Soviet agreements while our forces stood ready to invade Cuba with just 90 minutes of notice.  It’s called making sure the other side realise you are serious.   The Russians now took rather longer to invade after the collapse of negotiation.

Where was the hat tip to international law when we imposed a naval blockade on a sovereign cuba with which we were not at war?

True necessities of National security does trump international law.

One of the few strokes of luck Ukraine had, I think.

(February 26, 2022 at 12:50 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Yes, we offered Soviet agreements while our forces stood ready to invade Cuba with just 90 minutes of notice.  It’s called making sure the other side realise you are serious.   The Russians now took rather longer to invade after the collapse of negotiation.

Where was the hat tip to international law when we imposed a naval blockade on a sovereign cuba with which we were not at war?

True necessities of National security does trump international law.

Firstly, it wasn’t a blockade. Second - and more importantly - the US did not invade Cuba (you know, that time). Even though some of his advisors urged an immediate attack on Cuba to destroy the missiles and missile sites, Kennedy opted for the more prudent course.

I find it interesting that you’re excusing Putin for invading a sovereign nation, while excoriating Kennedy for not doing so.

Boru

(February 26, 2022 at 1:08 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(February 26, 2022 at 12:50 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Yes, we offered Soviet agreements while our forces stood ready to invade Cuba with just 90 minutes of notice.  It’s called making sure the other side realise you are serious.   The Russians now took rather longer to invade after the collapse of negotiation.

Where was the hat tip to international law when we imposed a naval blockade on a sovereign cuba with which we were not at war?

True necessities of National security does trump international law.

Firstly, it wasn’t a blockade. Second - and more importantly - the US did not invade Cuba (you know, that time). Even though some of his advisors urged an immediate attack on Cuba to destroy the missiles and missile sites, Kennedy opted for the more prudent course.

I find it interesting that you’re excusing Putin for invading a sovereign nation, while excoriating Kennedy for not doing so.

Boru

No, learn to read.

No, I am not excoriating Kennedy.

Yes, Kennedy did not invade as his opening move. but was ready to invade if Russia did not come to terms and withdraw the missiles.   In fact, all invasion forces were full embarked and stood in readiness to sail on 90 minute notice as he sent his brother to talk to Khrushchev’ s embassador.

Yet what he did was against all international law and norm.  Quibbling whether a blockade is a blockade when it interferes with, what’s our favorite term now, freedoms is navigation? Is meaningless.    He may not have invaded yet, but what he did was an act of war against cuba.

But what he did was fully justified, because Soviet nuclear weapons in cuba greatly reduce the credibility of US nuclear deterrence because it makes it plausible for the Soviets to launch a preemptive decapitating strike against Washington DC.    Eliminating that degradation to America’s freedom of action trumps any international law and norm.

The difference between then an now, is then, both US and USSR tried to tone down the temperature, both want to not burn bridges and be able to negotiate and deal with each other afterwards.   The Soviets could have done what the US is doing now in an effort to make Russia look bad for defending her core interest.   They could have dared us to invade a sovereign cuba, and the made propaganda hay out of it after we do, and leave the nuclear weapons to the Cubans to make it really bloody for us.  They didn’t.

So Noblesse oblige, we offered to not make them look bad by pulling out of cuba, by also pulling strategic nuclear weapons out of Turkey.

That’s how civilized adversaries conduct business.

Since the end of Cold War, especially since 2001, face it, we are the crude brutal savages of the world, who think who owe nothing to any one whom we do not approve.   We fabricate excuses to invade other countries, think we are so tough we can trample major power’s core interests at will.

It must be amazing to be so impressed with yourself.

(February 26, 2022 at 1:37 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: It must be amazing to be so impressed with yourself.

I always thought I was just a average Joe until I realized how much you guys all sucked compared to me