(March 23, 2022 at 3:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: His alleged divine justice system didn't prevent it either. tsk tsk tsk.  Who are you to question allahs plan?  Could the russians have invaded if it weren't the will of god that they did?

This can still be accounted for cogently in the free will framework, any russian soldier or decision-maker has free will, hence the agression. If God were to intervene to cancel even one person's free will, he would cancel free will altogether for all people, being just by defintiion.

(March 23, 2022 at 3:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're also still talking about free will, I'm still waiting to hear you explain how a person stopped from doing what they've freely willed to do is impossible, either for your god, or in mere reality.

Free will that has no real ramifications is not free will. If God were to intervene every evil act from happening, it's obvious that no one will make any effort to do anything. 

There is another thing that should be kept in mind withing the religious framework: that life and all the suffering it entails is a divine test.

Pretty sure you just identified the flaw in your own argument. It’s not that you think free will would be impossible if you could be stopped. You argued facetiously to that effect from the first utterance.

You just think nothing would matter, in that case.

I disagree, and, obviously….the justice systems of developed nations disagree.

(March 23, 2022 at 6:10 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Pretty sure you just identified the flaw in your own argument.  It’s not that you think free will would be impossible if you could be stopped.  You argued facetiously to that effect from the first utterance.

You just think nothing would matter, in that case.  

I disagree, and, obviously….the justice systems of developed nations disagree.

It's enough that no atheist ever could prove that evil contradicts benevolence, we don't even need a theodicy of free will.

(March 23, 2022 at 6:47 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: It's enough that no atheist ever could prove that evil contradicts benevolence, we don't even need a theodicy of free will.

A God that allows evil cannot be both benevolent and omnipotent.  It either doesn't care, or can't do anything.

The "evil works for good" argument makes no sense, because surely "good works for good" would be better. 

The idea that evil is "necessary" because a God needs to let people do evil so they won't feel over-parented, is just inane.

And I categorically reject "evil doesn't matter, because this life doesn't matter - only the afterlife matters".

(March 23, 2022 at 3:55 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(March 23, 2022 at 2:49 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: And this has ab.so.fucking.lutely nothing to do with Kennedy, Cuba, Nato or Hamilcar Barca for that matter.

Just so that we are clear, I do not agree with what Putin is doing in the Ukraine, nor do I agree with Kennedy's escalations during the Cuban missile crisis, nor do I agree with the Reagan administration's involvement in Nicaragua, nor Turkey's conflict with Armenia; my list goes on and on.  (I also believe that the United States should have allowed the Confederacy to secede, but, that's for another thread.)

Then why did you mention how Russia was invaded in the past 300 years? Why mention how a few American troops were in Russia a hundred years ago, in a conversation about the russian invasion of Ukraine. Why did you mention the Cuba crisis when i challenged you for (alleged) russian invasion apologetics? Why defending a position you now claim do dont hold?

What was your original point in posting this? 

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(March 23, 2022 at 10:05 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote:

(March 23, 2022 at 8:56 am)Deesse23 Wrote: ...and that is a justification of what?
Russia (and its allies) has attacked the Ottoman Empire in the past 300 years numerous times, conquering Ukraine, Crimera, et al.

What’s wrong with attacking the Ottoman Empire?
It’s been well established that turks are invaders in Asia Minor. There were already well established nations on those lands and the turks invaded, killed off people and took over.

Whats wrong with attacking Russia?
It’s been well established that Russians are invaders in Ukraine and Crimea. There were already well established nations on those lands and the Russians invaded, killed off people and took over.

(March 23, 2022 at 10:05 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: According to local rules, I am not allowed to kill my neighbor and take his house and other belongings. Why is it that on the international level, this is acceptable?

Please point out the article in the UN charter, the article which says that invasions of other nations are acceptable.

(March 24, 2022 at 3:11 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(March 23, 2022 at 3:55 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Just so that we are clear, I do not agree with what Putin is doing in the Ukraine, nor do I agree with Kennedy's escalations during the Cuban missile crisis, nor do I agree with the Reagan administration's involvement in Nicaragua, nor Turkey's conflict with Armenia; my list goes on and on.  (I also believe that the United States should have allowed the Confederacy to secede, but, that's for another thread.)

Then why did you mention how Russia was invaded in the past 300 years? Why mention how a few American troops were in Russia a hundred years ago, in a conversation about the russian invasion of Ukraine. Why did you mention the Cuba crisis when i challenged you for (alleged) russian invasion apologetics? Why defending a position you now claim do dont hold?

What was your original point in posting this? 

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Pot (the West) meet Kettle (Russia)

(March 24, 2022 at 3:54 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(March 24, 2022 at 3:11 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Then why did you mention how Russia was invaded in the past 300 years? Why mention how a few American troops were in Russia a hundred years ago, in a conversation about the russian invasion of Ukraine. Why did you mention the Cuba crisis when i challenged you for (alleged) russian invasion apologetics? Why defending a position you now claim do dont hold?

What was your original point in posting this? 

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Pot (the West) meet Kettle (Russia)

Still, whatever "the west" did wrong, does not apologize a russian invasion of ....whatever.
At best it makes "the west" hypocrites".

At best, i would draw this comparison: Versailes treaty.

Germany lost lots of territory. The (2nd) empire ceased to exist and the 3rd* one tried to gain back those lost territories (and its status and reputation. The republic already did). Once can blame the allies for being too stupid to treat Germany properly in the treaty of versailles, and not forseeing potential consequences. Once can conclude that it was inevitable that Germany would try to get back its central and leading position in Europe.
Still, none of that excuses the rise of 3rd Reich did (and was), of what it was and did.

Putin is a tyrant, someone who poisons, imprisons, invades at will. Someone who abandoned free speech and free press. Putin is noones fault but his own, for being such a shitty human being. 


*the mere existence of the 3rd one can be attributed to this issue if you may

(March 23, 2022 at 6:47 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(March 23, 2022 at 6:10 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Pretty sure you just identified the flaw in your own argument.  It’s not that you think free will would be impossible if you could be stopped.  You argued facetiously to that effect from the first utterance.

You just think nothing would matter, in that case.  

I disagree, and, obviously….the justice systems of developed nations disagree.

It's enough that no atheist ever could prove that evil contradicts benevolence, we don't even need a theodicy of free will.

-and yet every religious nut..yourself included, deigns to come up with an inept one.

Ultimately, though, I wholeheartedly agree with you. There is no need for a theodicy of evil or a theodicy of free will. Gods do what they do, and don't do what they don't do, and fuck you is why. You either can do what you freely will or can only do what god wills..because fuck you is why. Theodicies of evil and free will are only necessary with respect to some peoples beliefs about gods, beliefs like yours, the truth of which are irrelevant to the existence of gods.

Which is great for gods, since you nuts are dull. Wouldn't want their existence hinging on some shit you believe, now would they?

(March 24, 2022 at 3:11 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

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(March 23, 2022 at 10:05 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: What’s wrong with attacking the Ottoman Empire?
It’s been well established that turks are invaders in Asia Minor. There were already well established nations on those lands and the turks invaded, killed off people and took over.

Whats wrong with attacking Russia?
It’s been well established that Russians are invaders in Ukraine and Crimea. There were already well established nations on those lands and the Russians invaded, killed off people and took over.

I am not claiming that it is ok for Russia to invade Ukraine. Europe + Russia went through 2 disastrous wars not long ago (WW1 and WW2). They shouldn’t even do small wars.
What I am saying is that these events are connected with the USA foreign policy of treating Russia as an enemy.
The USA’s plan is to establish military bases wherever they can, all over the globe.
Part of their plan involves bringing in ex-Soviet nations into the sphere of influence of the USA, establish military bases and have nuclear weapons ready.
The only nation that the USA does not want is Russia.
Which other nation sets up military bases everywhere?

So, how does Russia view these actions? It is natural for them to think that it is time to stop the USA.

The war between Ukraine and Russia is more of a war between the USA and Russia. It is similar to the war between Georgia and Russia just a few years before.

Quote:Please point out the article in the UN charter, the article which says that invasions of other nations are acceptable.

It is suppose to be unacceptable yet, there is Turkey that has taken Armenian, Assyrian, Greek lands. There is Turkey that has invaded Cyprus in 1974. There is China that invaded Tibet. Currently, China has sent there military near the border of India and there is some small skirmish. Russia has taken some islands that belong to Japan since WW2 and has not returned it yet.

During the Iraq war of 2001 and +, they kept telling us on the news what a jerk Sadam is and how he used toxic gas on kurds.
Why are they telling us this while they are reporting on the USA invading Iraq?
What about the Tutsi vs the Hutu? Why didn’t the USA send troops there.
What about the genocide in Darfour?

Like I said, at the topmost level and at the international level, committing crimes and getting away with it is the norm.
No country wants to send there soldiers and risk their lives to save some other people. They only do it if there is profits to be made.

There is the Bosnian thing. I’m not sure what the deal with that was. Apparently, the USA and a few countries did send soldiers to stop it.
Apparently, the international court dealt with Slobodan Milovich.