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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 12:47 pm
I imagine that it would be difficult to get everyone to agree, but if we could - that's probably not the worst idea.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 12:48 pm
In my opinion, it's a fantastic idea.
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 12:58 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2022 at 12:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's the basic idea that any monotheistic belief system is premised on as well. God is conceived of as the single functionary capable of imposing or providing good order in the world. Any human order is at best subservient...and at worst in opposition. Ultimately, I doubt that we'll ever see a one world government. It seems like an idea doomed to fail by chance, by difficulty, by human nature. Just ask the catholics, right?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 2:07 pm
(March 23, 2022 at 12:58 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's the basic idea that any monotheistic belief system is premised on as well. God is conceived of as the single functionary capable of imposing or providing good order in the world. Any human order is at best subservient...and at worst in opposition. Ultimately, I doubt that we'll ever see a one world government. It seems like an idea doomed to fail by chance, by difficulty, by human nature. Just ask the catholics, right?
Without it, I think that we, as a species, are doomed. I hope that I am wrong, but such would go a way towards explaining the Fermi paradox.
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 2:49 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2022 at 2:50 pm by Deesse23.)
(March 23, 2022 at 12:26 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (March 23, 2022 at 11:38 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Whataboutism, completely irrelevant.
Please try again.
And, so, you think that it is okay for the Ukraine to join NATO and to have NATO planes, tanks, and miles, both conventional and nuclear, on Ukrainian soil? You keep deflecting. Let me take you back to our conversation:
#1
You apologizing Russias invasion of Ukraine, by pointing out how Russia was invaded in the past 300 years.
#2
Me pointing out that, in the same past 300 years, Russia has attacked the Ottoman Empire, several times in order to get control of the very territories that are currently in the news (Ukraine, Crimea).
If you want to apologize Russia for taking back territories from the former Soviet Union, then you surely must accept Turkey taking back the same territories from the former Ottoman Empire, according to your own logic.
And this has ab.so.fucking.lutely nothing to do with Kennedy, Cuba, Nato or Hamilcar Barca for that matter.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 3:00 pm
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: But why is your only solution to throw people into a lake with element 16? What would that accomplish?
First of all, it is not my solution, the doctrine of hell is common in all Abrahamic religions at least. Secondly, the obvious purpose of hell is to accomplish divine justice. Read again, divine justice, not your definition of justice, or that of any finite being with limited cognition.
Do you deny that you have limited cognition? (Y/N)
Do you think you can apprehend justice and morality better than all-knowing being? (Y/N)
All this is obvious, so I am not going to spell it out again.
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Why don’t you sit with him and talk about the problem?
Get to know him. Get to know his issues. Try to give a hug once in a while.
Why would I sit with a criminal or a mass murderer to know his issues? unless you're referring to some medical case where the perpetrator is mentally unstable and can't be held accountable, I don't know what you're talking about.
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Nature is observable. Evolution theory along with other sections of science all come together to support evolution theory.
So whatever we observe, we try to follow in the path of science rather than claiming aliens or gods or alien-gods did this and that and that they visited the Earth and built monuments for humans or built books for humans or telecommunicated via a subspace satellite array from dimension X directly into the brain of Jesus and Mohamed and Boy George.
Such stories about Jesus and Mohamed and Boy George are wonderful works of science-fiction.
You won’t be able to demonstrate that these aliens or alien-gods and gods have visited Earth.
You're so horribly confused here. God's existence and the historicity of Muhammad are two separate issues. And your stance on either of these issues is not clear so far.
Do you think God can't proved by empirical science?
Do you think that we can't prove anything that isn't observable?
Do you think that Muhammad was faking prophecy?
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: You believe in the jewish god and you believe that this god’s brain works correctly and that he designed your brain to work correctly.
So, we both think that our brain is working fine.
So, I fail to see what point you are trying to make.
Is your point the following:
“If there is a jewish god and he designed our brains, then this is a guarantee that our brain is functioning properly but if our brain is designed by nature, then there is no guarantee that our brain is working properly.”
Yes, precisely that. And it's obvious isn't it. Without a creator, there is no guarantee that our brain apprehends reality in any reliable way. The argument is straightforward: if the evolutionary process is not the intention of a creator to bring about brains capable of apprehending reality, then there is no good reason for us to assume our brains are reliable.
You pointed out to our various scientific accomplishments as evidence: this is pragmatism. The reliability of our brains shouldn't be contingent upon whether our mathematical models are correct. And needless to say that our science was mostly wrong until very recently.
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Yes, nature is the sum total of stuff around us.
Yes, life forms that we find on Earth have self-replications abilities. So do certain molecules.
I’m not sure what you mean by
But by saying "nature does have capabilities" you're simply commiting a fallacy of composition.
Because only elements of nature have capabilities, life forms have capabilities for example. But it doesn't follow that nature as a whole has capabilities.
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Quote:But none of that matters in this discussion as you don't believe in a god in the first place.
I am going to have to correct you on that.
It matters a lot.
We need to talk about these things to the fullest extent possible.
We need to push these discussion to its limits.
You won't be able to provide some internal inconsistency in the doctrine of heaven or hell. You already made gratuitous arguments like saying people will feel bored in heaven or won't have anything to do after some amount of years etc. This is not a serious discussion of these doctrines.
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I am not making an argument.
I am just saying that if someone has the ability, and it is easy for them to prevent a crime, yet just sits and watches the crime and does nothing to stop it is an immoral being.
Therefore, the jewish god is immoral.
You say you are not making argument, and immediately after that you write a premise (A being that doesn't immediately prevent a crime is immoral) and a conclusion.
And I already told you why your premise is wrong: it negates free will. You may say why won't God create a world where there is free will and no evil, and the answer would be : we know from literature that this world is not a possible world. And omnipotence doesn't entail creating a logically impossible world.
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I’m not sure why you are talking about free will. You seem to be saying that you wish a rape to occur, that you choose not to interfere.
You're confused again. The discussion is not about me, lol. You're here arguing, a being with finite knowledge, that an all-knowing God has no reason not to prevent crime immediately. This is a negative assertion. Good luck proving a negative assertion.
Your inability to substantiate that claim beyond simple moral condemnation is enough to reject your argument from evil.
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: The court system is one thing. Military action is another thing. It is obvious that the USA and allies do not wish to start WW3.
Can we punish head of states? Yes. In the city of Laval and Montreal, the mayors were caught and prosecuted.
Source:
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/former-laval...-1.1273711
https://corruption.net/canada-montreal-a...ion-probe/
https://corruption.net/canada-former-mon...orruption/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-montr...GB20130617
I don’t see any reason to not shoot women soldiers. Why should there be a gender bias?
During warfare, the enemy is an enemy.
It's not about gender bias, Islam doesn't acknowledge women joining the military in the first place.
And it's clear that the Russian court system can't do anything about Putin's aggression. Maybe NATO countries are justified in not intervening to avoid a global war, but it's clear that there is something inherently wrong in the justice system that allowed for the invasion of Ukraine to happen.
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 3:16 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2022 at 3:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No justice system we know of could prevent it...and, fwiw...you're making an awfully damning indictment of your god right now.
His alleged divine justice system didn't prevent it either. tsk tsk tsk. Who are you to question allahs plan? Could the russians have invaded if it weren't the will of god that they did?
You're also still talking about free will, I'm still waiting to hear you explain how a person stopped from doing what they've freely willed to do is impossible, either for your god, or in mere reality.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 3:55 pm
(March 23, 2022 at 2:49 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: And this has ab.so.fucking.lutely nothing to do with Kennedy, Cuba, Nato or Hamilcar Barca for that matter.
Just so that we are clear, I do not agree with what Putin is doing in the Ukraine, nor do I agree with Kennedy's escalations during the Cuban missile crisis, nor do I agree with the Reagan administration's involvement in Nicaragua, nor Turkey's conflict with Armenia; my list goes on and on. (I also believe that the United States should have allowed the Confederacy to secede, but, that's for another thread.)
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 4:35 pm
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
March 23, 2022 at 4:38 pm
(March 23, 2022 at 3:00 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: It's not about gender bias, Islam doesn't acknowledge women joining the military in the first place.
This short bit right here is going to be the gem of the thread.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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