That's straight up propaganda. It's the US's position that a strong, stable, open, and free russia is in our interest. You can conceive of this cynically if you like, ala we want that as a counterweight to china, but there it is.

No one was attacking russia, no one wanted to get rid of russia. No one was going to launch nukes at russia. They're not responding to an existential threat nor are they trying to redress historic grievance. It's a land grab. Period.

Fact is, though, the West has worked, if only implicitly, against the 5 or so countries in the World who are officially communist, and are happy to spread Western, democratic values and governments throughout the World. Not everyone, of course, agrees or wants this, especially, in those areas of the World where autocrats are in power.

While I would personally like to see Western, humanitarian values in places like Saudi Arabia, setting the entire World along the path of Western democratic consumerism is going to result in an environmental meltdown.

No, it won't. It's probably the only way to avoid environmental meltdown. Take a look at the petrostates.

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: So, when Russia setup nuclear missiles in Cuba, the USA did not like it.
It’s the same with the current situation. Russia does not like it when the USA is setting up shop near their borders.

No
Not the same but an equivocation. A real bad one at that, since you need to demonstrate that Ukraine is not acting on her own behalf)

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: When Russia sent a sub to the North pole and planted a flag under the ocean, Canada did not like it and I imagine the USA did not like it.
Russia claims that the upper parts of Canada, where you have some random small islands does not belong to Canada and has sent submarines and is interested in petrol. Again, this is something that Canada doesn’t want. I don’t know the details but I think Canada has stationed a small group of people on some of those islands as evidence that it is Canadian territory.

More, very bad ones, equivocations.

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Look at the case of Iraq. The USA decided to invade Iraq, destroy its army and Sadam Hussein in order to establish freedom. Do you think that is how Russia and China and North Korea views it?
For sure, they discuss what the USA is up to. The USA calls its NATO partners to go to Iraq, destroy it, take the petrol. That’s probably how they view it.
The USA repeated the same kind of thing in Lybia, in Central America, I think in Nicaragua and such.

Which is all but irrelevant to the evaluation of the russian invasion of another country. Whataboutism is not a good argument, as i already have explained to Jehanne (iirc).

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Each views their way as the right way.

Ans none of that is relevant to the evaluation of the russian invasion of another country.
Or are we at the "its just your opinion, dude" stage in this conversation?

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Russia is protecting russian people who are in Ukraine.

Thats what russian government controlled media are spewing, propaganda. Got some facts to support this?

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Signing papers is great but the most important thing is to have a powerful army and to have enough material and energy resources to have long wars.
All wars are a matter of resources.

And this (like many arguments and fallacies before that one) does not justify an invasion.

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Europe is trying to put pressure on Russia with sanctions. That’s great but where are they getting their natural gas and other needs now?

Quatar and the US
Not optimal choices considering the track record of those two, but a step forward.

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Germany refused to refuse Russia gas.

And Russia refused to stop delivering gas.

(March 27, 2022 at 3:28 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: So, when Russia setup nuclear missiles in Cuba, the USA did not like it.
It’s the same with the current situation. Russia does not like it when the USA is setting up shop near their borders.

No
Not the same but an equivocation. A real bad one at that, since you need to demonstrate that Ukraine is not acting on her own behalf)

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: When Russia sent a sub to the North pole and planted a flag under the ocean, Canada did not like it and I imagine the USA did not like it.
Russia claims that the upper parts of Canada, where you have some random small islands does not belong to Canada and has sent submarines and is interested in petrol. Again, this is something that Canada doesn’t want. I don’t know the details but I think Canada has stationed a small group of people on some of those islands as evidence that it is Canadian territory.

More, very bad ones, equivocations.

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Look at the case of Iraq. The USA decided to invade Iraq, destroy its army and Sadam Hussein in order to establish freedom. Do you think that is how Russia and China and North Korea views it?
For sure, they discuss what the USA is up to. The USA calls its NATO partners to go to Iraq, destroy it, take the petrol. That’s probably how they view it.
The USA repeated the same kind of thing in Lybia, in Central America, I think in Nicaragua and such.

Which is all but irrelevant to the evaluation of the russian invasion of another country. Whataboutism is not a good argument, as i already have explained to Jehanne (iirc).

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Each views their way as the right way.

Ans none of that is relevant to the evaluation of the russian invasion of another country.
Or are we at the "its just your opinion, dude" stage in this conversation?

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Russia is protecting russian people who are in Ukraine.

Thats what russian government controlled media are spewing, propaganda. Got some facts to support this?

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Signing papers is great but the most important thing is to have a powerful army and to have enough material and energy resources to have long wars.
All wars are a matter of resources.

And this (like many arguments and fallacies before that one) does not justify an invasion.

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Europe is trying to put pressure on Russia with sanctions. That’s great but where are they getting their natural gas and other needs now?

Quatar and the US
Not optimal choices considering the track record of those two, but a step forward.

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Germany refused to refuse Russia gas.

And Russia refused to stop delivering gas.

Look. I understand that you do not like what Russia is doing, you do not agree with their actions.
I’m not here to defend what Russia is doing.
I am just telling you that what is happening is predictable.
The politicians in the EU and in the USA are not dummies. They know very well Russia. Yet, the EU and USA goes ahead with their decisions.
So, what exactly did they do to incite Russia to send a large army into Ukraine 1 month ago?

You seem to be saying that Ukraine should join NATO and the USA should have military bases there.

Quote:No
Not the same but an equivocation. A real bad one at that, since you need to demonstrate that Ukraine is not acting on her own behalf)

No, that is irrelevant.
The important component here is that there are 2 large mutual enemies: USA and Russia.
The USA continues to view Russia as problematic, even after the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia responds.
The USA wants to setup military bases everywhere in the world and you think Russia, China are not noticing that?

Quote:More, very bad ones, equivocations.

I was only documenting about some of the political games that these nations are playing.
For example, I said that Russia wants to explore the upper regions of Canada where you have some random small islands.
If you were the canadian government, what would you do?

Quote:Which is all but irrelevant to the evaluation of the russian invasion of another country. Whataboutism is not a good argument, as i already have explained to Jehanne (iirc).

Like I said previously, I am not trying to defend what Russia is doing.
What I am saying is very simple:
The USA takes action X.
Russia responds.
The USA responds.
and on and on it goes.

Do you want that to continue?
If you were the government of the USA, what decisions would you take? Would you go ahead and have Ukraine join NATO and would you setup military bases over there?

Quote:Thats what russian government controlled media are spewing, propaganda. Got some facts to support this?

In order to have such facts, you would have to discuss the situation with the people over there or you have to be living over there.
In the case of Ukraine, I do not truly know but I think it makes sense.
I follow armenian channels on Youtube and there are quite a lot of anti-russian sentiment over there. The population is split. Some are pro-russian and some are not.

It sounds like you are saying there is no anti-russian sentiment over there and you require me to provide evidence.
I’m sorry, but I cannot satisfy your request but maybe you can contact a large number of ukrainians and have discussions with them and watch some ukrainian channels.

Quote:And this (like many arguments and fallacies before that one) does not justify an invasion.

I’m not here to defend what Russia is doing.
I am just telling you that what is happening is predictable.

Quote:Quatar and the US
Not optimal choices considering the track record of those two, but a step forward.

It is a complicated world.

Quote:Germany refused to refuse Russia gas.

And Russia refused to stop delivering gas.

It is a complicated world.


I am also going to copy my previous line since you did not respond to it:
What is happening in Ukraine right now is a perfect moment to show how the USA can protect anyone.
What is stopping the USA? A piece of paper was not signed?

(March 26, 2022 at 11:14 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Russia is protecting russian people who are in Ukraine. If they don’t do it, who will?

So they're protecting these people from themselves now? The only people who have been killing ethnic Russian Ukrainians have been members of the Russian army. It's gotten so bad now that (outside of the two puppet Donbas dictatorships) pretty much all Russians in Ukraine have become heavily anti-Russia.

Mariupol is a majority ethnic Russian city, who's blowing it to shit and back? Russia. You can say the same of other eastern Ukrainian cities like Zaporizhia or Kharkiv, the Russians are bombing the shit out of their fellow ethnic Russians who are becoming passionately loyal to Ukraine as a result.

As I said in my last response to you, believe your own bullshit if you want, but don't for a minute think that people with an iota of independent thought will be taken in by it.

(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: What is happening in Ukraine right now is a perfect moment to show how the USA can protect anyone.
What is stopping the USA? A piece of paper was not signed?

There may be some small reluctance to start World War III.