My much anticipated response - but first...

I really not a troll I believe what I write, I don't have enough time to go around messing with people on the internet. I'd like to have an intellectual discussion about the issues which I actually bring up in my post.


On Judaism: You guys seem to be quite versed in the ways of Judaism (sarcasm). Let me explain.

In Judaism there is no hell with fire or brimstone - so all this nonsense of "If I don't believe in your God will I rot" has no merit. We are a religion that not only doesn't proseyltize we actually will try to turn you away if you try to convert.

Next, we do have a heaven but its not the Christian or Muslim heaven of a garden of Eden with infinite physical pleasures - these things are considered very lowly on the Jewish totem pole. Our heaven is much more vague, according to tradition, once we die, our souls leave our body and become one with God.

I don't feel like discussing this - that wasn't the point of my original thread. I'm the first to tell you that religion has very little logical support and must be taken solely on faith.

This is my meat and potatoes: Is religion needed in order for the masses to sustain themselves especially when facing a future where mechanization and 'human evolution' threaten to destroy humanity as we know it?

Can Secular Humanism (again now abbreviated as SH and synonymous with atheism) build a moral framework is which we can resist our carnal, worldy desires?

I believe the answer is no.

Before we go down the road of speculation, lets look at the present day. Europe to me is a very sad case of what happens when a people lose God. Europe's (and Japan's) biggest problem right now is stablizing and decreasing populations. To you noobs out there this might seem like a 'good' thing (less resource consumption right?) but in reality its devastating economically, not to mention pretty sad. When I toured Europe for 10 days in October I saw very few families, very few children - compared to Israel which has loads of both.

Why don't people want to have kids? Pure selfishness, which brings me to my next point.

Without religion it seems people are less likely to give to charitable causes or care about their neighbor. There's alot of talk in the SH community of these things, but that seems to be the end of the line. Religious people are much more giving with their time and money to both family and strangers because religion teaches self sacrifice.

Ok - none of these things are that bad, I suppose. And on these alone I suppose I don't have a huge issue with SH, its the future that concerns me.

Disclaimer: In order to play along you need to take my speculation as fact or close to it. If you're going to call me a moron and say none of these things are going to happen, it will be a waste of all of our time. If you'd like to see why I feel this way, I'll gladly direct you to my sources.

As stated in the last thread, within in the next 2-3 decades we will begin fusing with machines slowly but surely until our form will no longer be considered human (at least not as we know it). Compounding this will be the onset of full immersion virtual reality where users will be able to enter virtual worlds in which one can be a hero, villian, actor, porn star or anything else that suits their fancy. This world will in every way be superior to ours.

Well why not just live there - you might say. Much for the same reason why you guys refuse to be religious - "its not real".

However, because SH lacks religion, you guys have cave men priorities in a more technical society with a higher moral code (that is totally based on religion but this is a topic for another day). Happiness to the SH is the end all be all. Without religion I believe you will all become cyborgs, put your brains in tubes so you can live in a virtual world uninterrupted, etc etc.

You might at this point respond that it doesn't matter, "who cares if we're happy". And that's exactly what I'm getting at.

Because you've forsaken religion, the great force of human morality, you will eventually forsake your humanity itself effectively letting the world be ruled by machines.


Hope this isn't TLDR.

Stop

SH and Atheism aren't synonymous. Go back and read about both and try again.

I've defined away the problem.

Your day-trip to europe made you such an expert on the situation there that you were able to draw a conclusion about secular humanism? More sanctimonious bullshit about my "caveman priorities". As opposed to what, your goat fucking desert tribe priorities?

If "the great force of human morality" leads to xenocide, ethnic cleansing, and the annihilation of cities and their inhabitants whole cloth then you can keep it. Your god, and his moral code, are worthless pieces of shit.

Instead of anti-semitism and hatred, how about making a logical argument?

No you haven't - SH provides ethics and moral values for some atheists. You are picking and choosing which actions you'd like to represent both as in order to sustain your argument.

I was waiting for the persecution complex to rear it's head. Here, let me make a "logical argument".

1 Your god is a piece of shit.
2 I don't put any stock in the opinions or demands of pieces of shit.
3 Ergo I choose atheism and secular humanism.

It's what we're best at, Rhythm.

(November 29, 2011 at 10:20 am)TheReal Wrote: Instead of anti-semitism and hatred, how about making a logical argument?

Calling Yahweh a "worthless piece of shit" is neither hatred (we don't hate what doesn't exist) nor is it anti-semitic. Christians and Muslims develop a similar persecution complex whenever their cherished beliefs are criticized or ridiculed. Deal with it.

Stop being such a cry baby or find another forum.

(November 29, 2011 at 10:16 am)TheReal Wrote: Without religion I believe you will all become cyborgs, put your brains in tubes so you can live in a virtual world uninterrupted, etc etc.