(June 30, 2022 at 7:41 pm)rlp21858 Wrote: Deesse23: it's the process of how one step leads to another.  steps A and B represent what we understand, knowing exactly how this leads to that (A leads to B), which we are fully convinced of because of universally-recognized proofs.  steps C and D (with the possibility of an E or further) represent future steps that we believe are possible though we dont have those universally-recognized proofs.

(June 30, 2022 at 8:57 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(June 29, 2022 at 1:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It kinda stretches the accepted standards of ‘evidence’ all out of shape, doesn’t it?

If a religious experience isn’t replicable, it isn’t evidence. If Jesus comes to me in a dream, how is that any more evidentiary than if Zlorg, the Slug Empress of Altair VI does the same thing? One common definition of evidence is that it is the available body of facts that are useful in determining whether or not a particular proposition is true (or at least valid). I don’t see how a spiritual or religious experience, unique to one individual, can be viewed as a fact - or even as information - to support the proposition ‘God exists’.

The most the can be said for such an experience is that it supports the claim, ‘I believe that God exists.’

Boru

There's no universal standard for evidence.

As for your dream example, in scripture a dream isn't evidence, but a dream that predicts future events with 100% accuracy is. So if Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you in the next week, and it happens, would you not consider that as evidence?

(July 1, 2022 at 12:05 am)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(June 30, 2022 at 9:55 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Oh, that's easy. Let's say that you have the Gift of Prophecy. If so, I will toss a quarter next Tuesday 100 times. You tell me the exact sequence of heads/tails that I will get, put it in an encrypted email and send it to me. I will perform the experiment, recording my results, sending them to you, or, better yet, a third party. In the presence of all, the predictions and results will be opened and compared. We both can insure integrity by supplying the passwords at the same time, live and "on the air".

I was looking for a yes or no answer, not a whole speech... all that and you still manage to not provide any answer.

(June 30, 2022 at 8:57 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(June 29, 2022 at 1:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It kinda stretches the accepted standards of ‘evidence’ all out of shape, doesn’t it?

If a religious experience isn’t replicable, it isn’t evidence. If Jesus comes to me in a dream, how is that any more evidentiary than if Zlorg, the Slug Empress of Altair VI does the same thing? One common definition of evidence is that it is the available body of facts that are useful in determining whether or not a particular proposition is true (or at least valid). I don’t see how a spiritual or religious experience, unique to one individual, can be viewed as a fact - or even as information - to support the proposition ‘God exists’.

The most the can be said for such an experience is that it supports the claim, ‘I believe that God exists.’

Boru

There's no universal standard for evidence.

As for your dream example, in scripture a dream isn't evidence, but a dream that predicts future events with 100% accuracy is. So if Jesus appeared to you in a dream and told you everything that would happen to you in the next week, and it happens, would you not consider that as evidence?

(July 1, 2022 at 7:57 am)rlp21858 Wrote: Jehanne: i agree it would be an impressive feat, but it seems to me this stems from a belief that God is the breaking of the laws of physics/nature/etc and reveals himself by breaking those laws.  *where did you get this belief?

Grand Nudger: i think you understand what i was trying to say, but i would think of your illustration as more like "faith flexing" (like muscle): how much  lasting faith do you expect to develop in one sitting (furniture..that's maybe a few hours?).  i believe faith grows, so the real faith is what you have when youre in a "relaxed state".  

hello Peebo-Thuhlu,

my reason for being here is not to force a conclusion on anyone, but only to try to make sure people understand what they mean when they say that they dont believe in God. i think i have a question about your #2, but i'm short on time.  i plan to check later though.

(July 1, 2022 at 7:57 am)rlp21858 Wrote: Jehanne: i agree it would be an impressive feat, but it seems to me this stems from a belief that God is the breaking of the laws of physics/nature/etc and reveals himself by breaking those laws.  *where did you get this belief?

Grand Nudger: i think you understand what i was trying to say, but i would think of your illustration as more like "faith flexing" (like muscle): how much  lasting faith do you expect to develop in one sitting (furniture..that's maybe a few hours?).  i believe faith grows, so the real faith is what you have when youre in a "relaxed state".  

hello Peebo-Thuhlu,

my reason for being here is not to force a conclusion on anyone, but only to try to make sure people understand what they mean when they say that they dont believe in God. i think i have a question about your #2, but i'm short on time.  i plan to check later though.

(June 30, 2022 at 9:38 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(June 30, 2022 at 9:02 pm)Jehanne Wrote: If God can reveal the future in dreams, why not under controlled conditions?  Why all the cosmic Hide & Seek?

I don't think you gave a clear answer on if you would consider the example given as evidence.