(August 25, 2022 at 4:14 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Let's run with that.  If your prophet is the real deal...I'll go to hell.  If he isn't the real deal I might still go to hell - any number of other gods and prophets could be maintaing their own little s&m dungeons in the hereafter.  Heavy on the s, light on the m..ofc.   Or, maybe, your prophet (or anyone's prophet...really) could be the real deal and I won't go to hell even so.

- to all of this..I say...and?  There are any number of ways the scenario can play out, you gave two... but none of them seem to have anything to do with me, particularly, and I doubt that I could stop some silly god from doing whatever it wanted to do with me.

This is where the story breaks. Since I claim that my prophet is true, this should be discussed first.
If it turns out to be true, no other alternatives need to be explored so there's no need for a whole lot of confusion.
And unlike the others, I have a holy book that I can stand behind.
This is no simple claim.
For, if a book has come from God (Perfect), a deficiency or error cannot be accepted in it.
Now, when I tell you that there is no mistake in a 600-page book with very serious scope, if I can prove it, you must accept that the Prophet I believe is real.

Your bar for perfection and evidence must be pretty gosh darn low.

(August 25, 2022 at 6:57 am)Tomato Wrote: We have evidence of the sun's existence. When god's existence can similarly be proven, then and only then can the religious concepts step clear of the mythological fog surrounding them.

Simple logic, Universe is a great design in every aspect and obvious superior intelligence creation.

So, there is a superior creator. With  magnificent power that created the whole universe from an infinite mass and volumeless point in super space (big bang).

While the big bang clearly shows that the universe had a starting point, you cannot claim that everything has been here forever.

and the missing piece in our puzzle is completed by the holy books from Allah and they tell us, through prophets, why life and the universe were created.

He created life and death to test which of you will prevail in goodness (Mulk 2)

(August 25, 2022 at 7:27 am)Tomato Wrote: Your bar for perfection and evidence must be pretty gosh darn low.

as always said, example, please...
Which part of the Quran do you assume is not Qualified as Holy?

(August 25, 2022 at 7:00 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(August 25, 2022 at 6:24 am)Believe Heart Wrote: 1- You go to hell or not. There are only 2 possibilities. The things you mentioned above are just reasons not the results.
2- No one can blame others for his sins. You can not blame Muslims for your doubts and wrong beliefs. Because there are thousands of others who find the right way under your circumstances. Probably you should check your arrogance which makes you blind.
3- It is only your assumption. Have you ever read and finished Quran from beginning to the end and also read Vikings' holly books which mentions Valhalla from beginning to the end. How can you match them without knowing them completely?
Life taught me that the main reason for all my failures is assumptions.

1. If Big Mo was wrong (not lying, just wrong), then I won’t go to hell.

2. I don’t sin. I take pride in my ability to doubt, so I’m not sure I can reasonably ‘blame’ anyone. Certainly not Muslims. Same for my arrogance.

3. I’ve read both Eddas (together with a lot of supernumerary material) and I own three copies of the Quran - two in English - that were gifted to me by Muslim friends. So, yes, I’ve read your book.

I have another theory about what is responsible for your failures.

Boru

Nope, obviously you didn't read Quran, you only have read your biases.
We can't have read the same book, because I see a clear miracle, you don't see anything.

(August 25, 2022 at 7:00 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(August 25, 2022 at 6:24 am)Believe Heart Wrote: 1- You go to hell or not. There are only 2 possibilities. The things you mentioned above are just reasons not the results.
2- No one can blame others for his sins. You can not blame Muslims for your doubts and wrong beliefs. Because there are thousands of others who find the right way under your circumstances. Probably you should check your arrogance which makes you blind.
3- It is only your assumption. Have you ever read and finished Quran from beginning to the end and also read Vikings' holly books which mentions Valhalla from beginning to the end. How can you match them without knowing them completely?
Life taught me that the main reason for all my failures is assumptions.

1. If Big Mo was wrong (not lying, just wrong), then I won’t go to hell.

2. I don’t sin. I take pride in my ability to doubt, so I’m not sure I can reasonably ‘blame’ anyone. Certainly not Muslims. Same for my arrogance.

3. I’ve read both Eddas (together with a lot of supernumerary material) and I own three copies of the Quran - two in English - that were gifted to me by Muslim friends. So, yes, I’ve read your book.

I have another theory about what is responsible for your failures.

Boru

Nope, obviously you didn't read Quran, you only have read your biases.
We can't have read the same book, because I see a clear miracle, you don't see anything.

Being a believer simply for the sake of believing in the clear absence of evidence isn't reasonable. A religious book that presents itself as a clear fairy tale isn't a representation of reality, but rather of imagination and an emotional desire for comfort.

(August 25, 2022 at 7:28 am)Believe Heart Wrote: Simple logic, Universe is a great design in every aspect and obvious superior intelligence creation.

How is universe obvious superior intelligence creation when babies get born deformed and die?

(August 25, 2022 at 7:43 am)Tomato Wrote: Being a believer simply for the sake of believing in the clear absence of evidence isn't reasonable. A religious book that presents itself as a clear fairy tale isn't a representation of reality, but rather of imagination and an emotional desire for comfort.

Do you continue to drink something or get a drug to stay in that high? 
I am telling you I have been reading this book for 30 years and there is no fairy tales in it.
There are miracles, there are virtue stories but no tales.
Besides, why didn't you answer my message which shows an obvious numerical miracle of Quran?

(August 25, 2022 at 8:13 am)Believe Heart Wrote: I am telling you I have been reading this book for 30 years and there is no fairy tales in it.

There are fairytales in Koran, like that a man was swallowed by a giant fish, that a man flew on a winged horse to seven layers of heaven and talked to god, and there is a whole book where Mohammed met jinns - those are fairytales because they contain impossible stories with fantastical creatures.