(August 25, 2022 at 1:18 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(August 25, 2022 at 12:44 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Occam's razor doesn't apply to matters of choice as necessity doesn't constrain such choices.  I think you're implying an inductive argument, instead, that the naive interpretation is more probable because it's the more frequent occurrence.  If so, it's not at all clear that this is true.  And there's nothing simpler about the naive interpretation.  As to first person perspectives, much of fictional literature is written from such a perspective and is still fictional.  And this isn't confined to the modern world as fiction isn't anything new.  Take the plays of ancient Greece or any of numerous epic tales.

As far as your frequency comment, yes, I think the traditional or conservative position should always be the starting point. And even when a more liberal position is preferred, it is best to adopt it in response to, or opposition to, the standard or common position.

(August 25, 2022 at 1:18 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: As for the razor, I think the principle of it still applies: I don't see the need to multiply authors unnecessarily if it isn't otherwise obvious or evident. It just adds more assumptions and becomes less verifiable in the process.

(August 25, 2022 at 5:23 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: It was already clear to me that if you're arguing for a 2nd century date, that by default you can't consider Daniel a prophet or his writings prophecies.

Quote:The author calls them dreams and visions. I have no problem simply calling them such if it makes any difference to you.

(August 25, 2022 at 5:35 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(August 25, 2022 at 1:18 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: As far as your frequency comment, yes, I think the traditional or conservative position should always be the starting point. And even when a more liberal position is preferred, it is best to adopt it in response to, or opposition to, the standard or common position.

Why?

(August 25, 2022 at 5:49 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It makes a difference to judaism, and it clearly makes a difference to you, as your rejection of all of this content is specifically predicate on your belief that it is a prophetic book.  That, likely, influences your belief that it was composed in the sixth century, as well.

(August 25, 2022 at 6:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You keep coming back to the date, but you clearly understand that the the christian interpretation of the narrative is not the traditional interpretation of the narrative.  That the two religions were both wrong about the same thing does not alter that, or certify that your christian interpretation is the traditional or conservative interpretation.

(August 25, 2022 at 12:42 pm)Vicki Q Wrote: OK, a rather overlong answer to the persecution question, now I can focus on such a tangent.

Firstly, what is persecution? There is high level persecution in which an emperor declares that Xians are bad and there are prizes for the people who kill the most Xians. There is no evidence of that before Nero. There is medium level persecution such as a minor riot. The sort of thing that uses pitchforks and torches. Then there is low level, such as a couple of drunks doing dental work on a Xian with their boots. There is overwhelming evidence for those two.

In C1 Mediterranean society, unlike C21 Western, religion was not a private matter in it's own box. It was intimately bundled with your culture, race, community and nation. To change religion was to insult all of those.

To a Jew, you denied the uniqueness of the Jews, declared Torah redundant and denied the need to make Israel independent. To a Roman, declaring Jesus to be Christ (=King) was to declare that Caesar wasn't, which was sedition and treason. To an urban Greek, the town god protected the local town from harm, so when someone comes along and says to stop worshipping the god (and stop buying his merch) it badly upsets people.

So Xians were angering pretty much every society in which they operated, and a convert to Xianity got the reaction it would get today in, say North Korea, Iran or  Kyrgyzstan.

Nothing high level or organised, but a constant stream of vilification and violence.

What is the evidence for this low/medium persecution in the earliest church?
Stephen barely gets his head around Jesus when someone bashes it in. Saul organises persecution (and he knew what would happen to him when he converted). Herod executes James. A riot in Ephesus. Etc and a full long list in Acts is here: Acts bit (Book of Acts). Paul writes to Thessalonica to comfort them in their persecution (1 Thess 2). Paul writes to Phillippi to comfort them in their persecution (Phil 1). Paul writes to Rome to comfort them in their persecution (Rom 5 and 8). Einstein, James Dean, Brooklyn's got a winning team (Joel). Jesus tells the disciples to expect suffering (Makes no sense if there weren't any; Luke 21, Matt 5 etc). Paul getting hurt (1 Cor 4 etc) Martyrs in Revelation (2,6,20)

And then there's 2 Corinthians.
Paul's legitimacy has been challenged by the Torah-bashers. The Corinthians have asked for a CV listing all his achievements so they can do a relaunch of his ministry as a fine, noble figure.

Paul's reply is a masterpiece of dark comedy.

He starts by talking about what a Xian hero looks like i.e. Jesus. He points out that Jesus got beaten up, spat on and killed. That the Corinthians have it the wrong way around- if you want to be a Xian hero, expect to suffer like Jesus. He then writes the following.

(If you genuinely, really, actually don't think Xians were persecuted, please please read this passage slowly enough to understand it.)

Funny man

In other words, he says, if you want a CV to glorify me, I'll pull down my pants and it's written in the terrible scars on my arse.

(US=ass. I paraphrase a bit. There's a corona muralis reference in v33)

There is more evidence, but we already have multiple sources in multiple forms (History, letters, music, biography, comedy...). Historically it's an earthquake creating slam dunk of certainty that the earliest Xians were persecuted.