That's the problem with the current state of the world right now, though isn't it? People preferring to believe false spins that align with their warped, unrealistic ideals.

(September 7, 2022 at 3:01 am)Tomato Wrote: That's the problem with the current state of the world right now, though isn't it? People preferring to believe false spins that align with their warped, unrealistic ideals.

Leaves one wondering which spins are true and which ideals are realistic, doesn't it?
I gave up following the news on this because, on the one hand, the terrain seems to be mostly static; on the other hand, all I get from the media is "the UK says this", "The CIA says that", "according to Ukrainian sources", etc. oh, and "russian state media made this outrageous comment". Who is being truthful here?

(September 7, 2022 at 5:43 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 7, 2022 at 3:01 am)Tomato Wrote: That's the problem with the current state of the world right now, though isn't it? People preferring to believe false spins that align with their warped, unrealistic ideals.

Leaves one wondering which spins are true and which ideals are realistic, doesn't it?
I gave up following the news on this because, on the one hand, the terrain seems to be mostly static; on the other hand, all I get from the media is "the UK says this", "The CIA says that", "according to Ukrainian sources", etc. oh, and "russian state media made this outrageous comment". Who is being truthful here?

Well, we can winnow it down a bit. Since Putin has repeatedly expressed his support of the dictum, ‘Never tell the truth when a lie will do’, I think we can safe rule him out as one of the truth tellers.

A reasonably useful method for determining the truth of a statement is to see how well it matches with known facts. For example, Ukrainian numbers of Russian soldiers killed is much closer to the actual number than what the Russian media reports (we have a fairly good estimate of the correct number based on troop/equipment replacements, etc).

Boru

(September 7, 2022 at 5:43 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 7, 2022 at 3:01 am)Tomato Wrote: That's the problem with the current state of the world right now, though isn't it? People preferring to believe false spins that align with their warped, unrealistic ideals.

Leaves one wondering which spins are true and which ideals are realistic, doesn't it?
I gave up following the news on this because, on the one hand, the terrain seems to be mostly static; on the other hand, all I get from the media is "the UK says this", "The CIA says that", "according to Ukrainian sources", etc. oh, and "russian state media made this outrageous comment". Who is being truthful here?

That's why it said that it do not need a CIA operative, Ukrainian news, or Kremlin propaganda to evaluate the past push to Kiev. It is an established fact, and given the context in which it happened it's pretty safe to say, that not everything happened as planned.

IMHO you get into the trap of "there is s lot of disinformation out there. We do not know many things, therefore we do not know anything"

Much like the stereotypical Christian apologetic " science does not know everything, therefore it knows nothing"

No offense, but IMHO you are playing into Putin's cards. He is the one who would like to have everyone confused, because he needs to cover the simple and basic fact that he invaded another nation.

Alot of russian propaganda probably isn't meant to be believed even in the domestic market. That's for the best, since alot of it is completely unbelievable on any terms. There is no counteroffensive, fake news! There is a massive counteroffensive and we destroyed them at the lines! Don't worry, we'll take all the land back! All three come from a single propagandist in a single 24 hour period. Okaaaaay..pick one.

The practical goal is to reinforce the idea that there is and can be no truth, that everything is politics....and since you don't understand the politics, it's best to stay out of it. This is the cut and dry appraisal of the war in ukraine as told by russian pows and their family members back home in interview after interview after interview. Who invaded who, who is responsible for you or your son being here? The question becomes -impossible- for people to answer...and, as a kicker, it's probably not safe for them to answer it anyway, no matter where they are.

(September 7, 2022 at 9:09 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The practical goal is to reinforce the idea that there is and can be no truth, that everything is politics....and since you don't understand the politics, it's best to stay out of it.

The new world order does seem to be headed this way, toward a corrupt conservative syndicate.

Bannon called it flooding the zone with shit. Chris Rufo calls it recoding. Kellyanne calls them alternative facts.

Why don't I trust Russian sources? 

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-...ion-2022-4

(September 5, 2022 at 7:05 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(September 5, 2022 at 6:55 pm)Helios Wrote: Totally a government you can trust...


Yup totally sounds like someone who will respect Ukrainian sovereignty...... 

The President of Ukraine knew full well the attack was coming. He lied to his own people and the world, for strategic reasons he says.

https://www.republicworld.com/world-news...eshow.html

Publicly admitting to the looming Russian assault on Ukrainian soil would have led to a mass exodus, as per the Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelesnkyy.

I'm sorry but when did the house paper of the neo-nazi BJP become evidence? They'll print any shit Russia feed's them.

(September 7, 2022 at 7:59 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(September 7, 2022 at 5:43 am)pocaracas Wrote: Leaves one wondering which spins are true and which ideals are realistic, doesn't it?
I gave up following the news on this because, on the one hand, the terrain seems to be mostly static; on the other hand, all I get from the media is "the UK says this", "The CIA says that", "according to Ukrainian sources", etc. oh, and "russian state media made this outrageous comment". Who is being truthful here?

That's why it said that it do not need a CIA operative, Ukrainian news, or Kremlin propaganda to evaluate the past push to Kiev. It is an established fact, and given the context in which it happened it's pretty safe to say, that not everything happened as planned.

Did it? Who knows?
Maybe their idea was to divert Ukrainian troops aways from Donbas while Russia took it over. The established fact is that Russia currently controls Donbas and doesn't seem to be having much difficulty in keeping it.

(September 7, 2022 at 7:59 am)Deesse23 Wrote: IMHO you get into the trap of "there is s lot of disinformation out there. We do not know many things, therefore we do not know anything"

Much like the stereotypical Christian apologetic " science does not know everything, therefore it knows nothing"

We know some things. I wouldn't presume to say we know what the Kremlin is and was thinking, though.

(September 7, 2022 at 7:59 am)Deesse23 Wrote: No offense, but IMHO you are playing into Putin's cards. He is the one who would like to have everyone confused, because he needs to cover the simple and basic fact that he invaded another nation.

Yes, he invaded. That's why I support maintaining the sanctions that the western world put in place.