Quote:Be prepared that China may join the fray with the, "Well, it's now or never" attitude. I doubt that they will be targeting Moscow.

China isn't going to join the fray and even if they did it wouldn't help Russia much and the idea we should cower before China is absurd.

I hope that you're correct, truly, I do.

(September 27, 2022 at 2:53 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I don't know.  Why did Putin invade Ukraine?  Answer:  They (Ukraine) wanted to join NATO.  If that happens someday, what's to prevent NATO from stationing nuclear weapons in Ukraine??  In the early 60s, President Kennedy threatened nuclear war over the Soviets trying to pull a similar trick in Cuba.  Do you think that Kennedy was merely joking?  Or, was he serious??

Not sure how to reply to this.

So... if Russia 'Absorbes' the area that is currently Ukriane. Then Russia should not install any nuclear capability in that area, right?

Uhm... I don't think your over half a century old analogy quite works? 

After all Cuba was a very happy and willing Russian ally? Like, Russia didn't start amphibious opperations and landing tanks and paratroopers in Cuba back in the 60's to force Fidel and the Cuban's to allow the building of military infrasctructure and the housing of large, nuclear capable aircraft? , did they?

Sorry, like I said, I'm missing something in your analogy there.

My stance is that the Russian's started this and the Ukrainian's (After 2014) were as prepared as they could be which is thence showing that the current Russian leadership might be as competent as some Western Governments.

I could but hope my country could put up the same effort should some other country decides that we should change our flags etc.

Your mileage may vary.

Cheers.

Not at work.

(September 28, 2022 at 1:00 am)Peebothuhlu Wrote:

(September 27, 2022 at 2:53 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I don't know.  Why did Putin invade Ukraine?  Answer:  They (Ukraine) wanted to join NATO.  If that happens someday, what's to prevent NATO from stationing nuclear weapons in Ukraine??  In the early 60s, President Kennedy threatened nuclear war over the Soviets trying to pull a similar trick in Cuba.  Do you think that Kennedy was merely joking?  Or, was he serious??

Not sure how to reply to this.

So... if Russia 'Absorbes' the area that is currently Ukriane. Then Russia should not install any nuclear capability in that area, right?

Uhm... I don't think your over half a century old analogy quite works? 

After all Cuba was a very happy and willing Russian ally? Like, Russia didn't start amphibious opperations and landing tanks and paratroopers in Cuba back in the 60's to force Fidel and the Cuban's to allow the building of military infrasctructure and the housing of large, nuclear capable aircraft? , did they?

Sorry, like I said, I'm missing something in your analogy there.

My stance is that the Russian's started this and the Ukrainian's (After 2014) were as prepared as they could be which is thence showing that the current Russian leadership might be as competent as some Western Governments.

I could but hope my country could put up the same effort should some other country decides that we should change our flags etc.

Your mileage may vary.

Cheers.

Not at work.

Also at no point did The Soviets declare Cuba part of Russia or Deny its right to be a country.

(September 27, 2022 at 5:20 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 27, 2022 at 5:10 pm)Helios Wrote: Which isn't equal to Ukraine joining NATO

And, so, when Ukraine wins and joins NATO, no issues then with nuclear weapons being in Ukraine?  Russia should just accept that??

How about if the United States should build ICBMs in Taiwan?  Should China just accept that?

There is a certain area of grey between accepting something and invading another country, dont you think?
Plus: Whom is NATO threatening? Did you ever bother to read the paragraphs of the treaty? NATO is simply unable to threaten anyone, since it is a defensive alliance, with everyone responding as soon as someone is attacked.

NATO is only a threat to you if you intend to threaten (or even start one) war with one of its members, but dont wanna deal with the rest.....oh, wait 

(September 27, 2022 at 6:43 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 27, 2022 at 6:38 pm)Helios Wrote: Yup, which means nothing as in principle it never will strike first.

Why did the United States send troops to Russia:

Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War

Russian civil war in the early 20s and NATO during the cold war.
Dude, thats the worst kinda whataboutism ive seen in a long looong time.

(September 27, 2022 at 6:54 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 27, 2022 at 6:50 pm)Helios Wrote: 1. That was before NATO even existed ....

2. That conventional war not Nuclear weapons 

3. That was a US invention in a civil war not a first strike in a sovereign state 

So totally irrelevant 

Russia doesn't trust the West; they've been invaded several times over the last 200 years.  Now, maybe they should trust the West, but, at present, they don't.

...and thats your apologetics for invasion of Ukraine? History?
Germany has been invaded several times by France in the 17th-18th century. I guess the war of 1870/71 was aok then.

Back to Russia.
The most succesful invasion(s) of Russia were conducted by Poland, believe it or not. in the 1600s Moscow was taken and Russia had to accept territorial losses to Poland. In 1921 Poland attacked Russia and took parts of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania. 
Why does Putin not bother with Poland at all? He should trust Poland the least of all.

Yes, exactly, your argument is utter nonsense, historically.

(September 27, 2022 at 7:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: They're probably more interested now than when they gave them up.  Yet another miscalculation.

Sweden and Finland. From a strategic and geopolitical perspective the biggest political blunder of Russia since decades.

(September 28, 2022 at 3:25 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(September 27, 2022 at 7:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: They're probably more interested now than when they gave them up.  Yet another miscalculation.

Sweden and Finland. From a strategic and geopolitical perspective the biggest political blunder of Russia since decades.

Time will tell.

Boru

(September 28, 2022 at 3:20 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(September 27, 2022 at 6:54 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Russia doesn't trust the West; they've been invaded several times over the last 200 years.  Now, maybe they should trust the West, but, at present, they don't.

...and thats your apologetics for invasion of Ukraine? History?
Germany has been invaded several times by France in the 17th-18th century. I guess the war of 1870/71 was aok then.

Back to Russia.
The most succesful invasion(s) of Russia were conducted by Poland, believe it or not. in the 1600s Moscow was taken and Russia had to accept territorial losses to Poland. In 1921 Poland attacked Russia and took parts of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania. 
Why does Putin not bother with Poland at all? He should trust Poland the least of all.

Yes, exactly, your argument is utter nonsense, historically.

Umm, I am NOT justifying the behavior, rather, I am trying to give an explanation/reason for it.

As I've stated, Russia's invasion of Ukraine was, is and remains abhorrently evil. Individuals living in Ukraine would wanted to be part of Russia could and should have simply moved!