Quote:I don't think Putin is going to leave Ukraine. His credibility and even his own life is possibly on the line here, so he may not see complete defeat as an option. Can Ukrainians sustain this rate of casualties? 50 deaths in a couple hours. They've fought bravely, but how long can you really keep this up and is this really a sustainable strategy? And will Russian support for the war grow with the 4 annexed areas in Ukraine (that have supposedly now voted to join the Russian Federation) becoming a part of the Russian Federation according to Putin? My position hasn't changed. I still want to see an end to the war.

1. Putin's going to be pushed out regardless. He will lose Ukraine it's already happening.

2. Ukraine can keep it up as long as the weapons keep coming and there is no serious chance of that stopping anytime soon.

3. Those "elections" were a sham and once those people start being drafted into the Russian army they will turn on the Russians

4. Of course your not going to change your position because you're in denial....

Quote:A majority of American likely voters support U.S. pursuing negotiations “as soon as possible” to end the war in Ukraine, "even if Ukraine must make some compromises with Russia". Only 32 % somewhat or strongly oppose that idea. So by AF standards, only 32 % are not Putin puppets and have passed the first stage of the purity test.

No, only 32% are not Russian shills or are deceived by them.

So your passive-aggressive whining that you receive criticism for your position fails yet again.

Cope harder.....

I don't think Putin will survive Ukraine one way or the other. He's staked his regime on this war.

Putin may not leave Ukraine, but Russia will.

Boru

(September 28, 2022 at 6:41 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 5:49 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Help Yemen defend itself against Saudi Arabia should also not be a waste.
Same for Palestine against Israel, right?
Not to mention countless civil wars between factions within "countries" spread all over the world, but seemingly concentrated in Africa and South America.

The thing is... what is the US government's interest in helping Ukraine, while not helping the others?
Could it have something to do with the interest that Russia has in Ukraine, too?

It’s partly that, but mostly because the Budapest Memorandum is considered - by people who study this sort of thing - to be treaty-equivalent.

Boru

Which suddenly becomes important, but not so much during the past 7 years, since the invasion of Crimea. Gotcha!

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(September 28, 2022 at 7:11 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 5:49 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Help Yemen defend itself against Saudi Arabia should also not be a waste.
Same for Palestine against Israel, right?
Not to mention countless civil wars between factions within "countries" spread all over the world, but seemingly concentrated in Africa and South America.

The thing is... what is the US government's interest in helping Ukraine, while not helping the others?
Could it have something to do with the interest that Russia has in Ukraine, too?

Call me when Yemen is an ally in standing like Europe is to America.

I won't hold my breath.

Europe is a continent, like Africa or Asia, not an ally.
You may say there are more treaties between European countries and the US, than with Yemen... But, seeing as the Middle-East bottle got cracked with Iraq and Afghanistan, the question stands.

(September 28, 2022 at 7:11 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'd love to see America cut off aid to both Israel and Saudi Arabia, myself.

Sadly, $$$ speak louder than you or I.

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(September 29, 2022 at 2:22 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I don't think Putin will survive Ukraine one way or the other. He's staked his regime on this war.

I don't think you understand how a regime works. Its primary function is to remain in power.

Quote:Which suddenly becomes important, but not so much during the past 7 years, since the invasion of Crimea. Gotcha!

So we can't care about Ukraine now because we didn't stop the invasion of  Crimea....Flawless logic ......

Quote:Europe is a continent, like Africa or Asia, not an ally.

You may say there are more treaties between European countries and the US, than with Yemen... But, seeing as the Middle-East bottle got cracked with Iraq and Afghanistan, the question stands.

Again because we didn't stop all the bad stuff elsewhere we can't stop it in Ukraine .......Flawless logic ...... 

Quote:Sadly, $$$ speak louder than you or I.

This is true 

Quote:I don't think you understand how a regime works. Its primary function is to remain in power. 

And it won't stay in power so it will be non functional 

(September 29, 2022 at 4:00 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 6:41 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It’s partly that, but mostly because the Budapest Memorandum is considered - by people who study this sort of thing - to be treaty-equivalent.

Boru

Which suddenly becomes important, but not so much during the past 7 years, since the invasion of Crimea. Gotcha!

---

(Deleted the bits not directed at me.)

Which was a HUGE blunder on the part of the US and others.

But you moved the goalposts. You asked why the US got involved in Ukraine and not other places, not why the US failed in its commitment to Ukraine in 2014.

Boru

(September 29, 2022 at 4:27 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 29, 2022 at 4:00 am)pocaracas Wrote: Which suddenly becomes important, but not so much during the past 7 years, since the invasion of Crimea. Gotcha!

---

(Deleted the bits not directed at me.)

Which was a HUGE blunder on the part of the US and others.

But you moved the goalposts. You asked why the US got involved in Ukraine and not other places, not why the US failed in its commitment to Ukraine in 2014.

Boru

Yes, and since you answered mostly satisfactorily for that original question, it was time to move on... to something that didn't make sense embedded in that answer.
Still doesn't make sense, since it seems we both agree that the response "the world" is having in 2022 is the one that should have happened in 2014.
Which raises the question of why did the US/NATO/etc not help Ukraine more in 2014, when the Budapest Memorandum would have applied just as much as it does now?
Or alternatively, if the memorandum didn't really apply much in 2014, then what makes it apply now in 2022?

If the memorandum applies equally on both events but the West only reacted adequately in 2022, then perhaps the memorandum is not the correct answer to the original question.

(September 29, 2022 at 5:27 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 29, 2022 at 4:27 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (Deleted the bits not directed at me.)

Which was a HUGE blunder on the part of the US and others.

But you moved the goalposts. You asked why the US got involved in Ukraine and not other places, not why the US failed in its commitment to Ukraine in 2014.

Boru

Yes, and since you answered mostly satisfactorily for that original question, it was time to move on... to something that didn't make sense embedded in that answer.
Still doesn't make sense, since it seems we both agree that the response "the world" is having in 2022 is the one that should have happened in 2014.
Which raises the question of why did the US/NATO/etc not help Ukraine more in 2014, when the Budapest Memorandum would have applied just as much as it does now?
Or alternatively, if the memorandum didn't really apply much in 2014, then what makes it apply now in 2022?

If the memorandum applies equally on both events but the West only reacted adequately in 2022, then perhaps the memorandum is not the correct answer to the original question.

The memorandum IS part of the answer to your original question. The tepid response to the Crimea invasion was a failure of the US to live up to its agreement.

I strongly suspect (though I cannot prove) that if America and the world had responded to Russia in 2014 the way they responded in 2022, we wouldn’t be in this situation.

Boru

(September 29, 2022 at 4:18 am)Helios Wrote:

Quote:Which suddenly becomes important, but not so much during the past 7 years, since the invasion of Crimea. Gotcha!

So we can't care about Ukraine now because we didn't stop the invasion of  Crimea....Flawless logic ......

Quote:Europe is a continent, like Africa or Asia, not an ally.

You may say there are more treaties between European countries and the US, than with Yemen... But, seeing as the Middle-East bottle got cracked with Iraq and Afghanistan, the question stands.

Again because we didn't stop all the bad stuff elsewhere we can't stop it in Ukraine .......Flawless logic ...... 

Quote:Sadly, $$$ speak louder than you or I.

This is true 

Quote:I don't think you understand how a regime works. Its primary function is to remain in power. 

And it won't stay in power so it will be non functional 

The logic is that there are powers at work that we don't know about.
All I'm doing is asking what those are.

In the meantime, you are using "Hulk, smash" logic. We have to stomp the wrongdoer Putin for invading Ukraine. Which, fine... but by that logic, I'd expect you to apply it as universally as possible.
So, if you think the West (mostly US) is helping Ukraine out of the kindness of their hearts, because [Hulk speak]Putin bad. Me squash Putin[/Hulk], then you are nearly as brainwashed as the propaganda spewing pundits on Russia TV.

To me, nothing that Putin has said, even including his history lesson from 2019, justifies this invasion. Like we agreed earlier, $$$ speak louder. So, where is the money in this? Land? Resources?
Some months ago, I heard that Ukraine's cutting of water supply from the Dnipro to Crimea (fresh water, mind you) was one of the main reasons for the recent invasion... to take control of water. There's one resource. Is this thing I heard correct? maybe... google maps does show a massive canal from the river to Crimea: https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7282828,...a=!3m1!1e3
There are probably other reasons... crops, ore... geopolitical... this did speed up the adoption of the Swift-rival banking system for Russia, India and China to trade on, so expect more.

Don't think that I of Jehanne don't condemn the invasion, any invasion, any war. But do try to consider that maybe we are looking at it from a different perspective which, I think, is a bit less simple than whatever the official narrative is.
While the ideal outcome would be for Putin and the whole current Russian regime to be squashed, realistically that is very unlikely to happen.
Jehanne has been telling you what seems to be the most likely outcome and all you can say is something along the lines of "that is unacceptable, Putin must DIE!!!!"
Come on... be real.

It seems like something needs to be made clear. Putin won't be punished for anything. Even if he were deposed, which I doubt...and fled to the us...which I doubt. From the cash angle, it was probably more of a competition thing. It's not so much that they need (or could even do anything) with ukranian resoures..but would rather prefer that ukraine didn't do anything with them, either.

(and yes, crimea's main fresh water supply can be cut off from the mainland, which ukraine is certainly looking to take control of - easy to remedy problem, build another pipeline. probably cheaper than this invasion)