(November 1, 2022 at 7:58 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Shooting for the us causing ukraine, will settle for japan "disobeying".

As if anyone was telling Japan to "obey " to begin with.As if Japan isn't a sovereign state that makes its own decisions. Even if they are bad ones 

(October 31, 2022 at 7:36 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(October 31, 2022 at 4:59 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Than They started the Korean war the counter the growing influence of Communism in that region.

We Americans didn't start the Korean war. The North Koreans did that with their surprise invasion of South Korea on 25 Jun 1950. America, the UK, Australia, Turkey, and other nations responded to this invasion by giving military support to South Korea -- Americans being the first to aid the defense by dint of America having small forces stationed on the ground there with those units fighting back immediately.

True. As I said. These records in my brain date from 1995, but it’s still there. So I won’t google it.

The PRC had backed North Korea, there had been some gains and then push backs. NATO did not war a direct conflict with China. So it ended in a Status Quo. Creating the republic of South Korea that produces smart phones and microchips instead of outdated nuclear capable ballistic missiles and does not kidnap Japanese citizens to later use them as spies or as bargain against Japan.

(October 31, 2022 at 8:00 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(October 31, 2022 at 5:20 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: - Did you verify the thing that you heard or read? Did you check on some multiple / reliable sources? Are you news sources respecting the ethics of journalism? Do they really accomplish the duty of informing the public in return for the monthly pay they are receiving? Are these person journalists or are they the heralds of some person or group that they are serving or that they are afraid of?
If you are not asking these questions now (Mr. Bel.). 

I asked you to tell us which news sources you find reliable, and you declined to answer. 

Quote:Let’s end this discussion now. And pick up where we left in 3-4 years’ time. That’s my offer to you

Well, let's go back a few years, review what these highly reliable official sources were telling us, and think about what's happened since.

Did you believe it when the New York Times and all the other corporate media outlets told us that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, was capable of an imminent attack on the US, and had something to do with 9-11? Because that's what they told us. And the journalists who said it was a lie were fired. 

And it turned out to be a lie. 

- I didn’t refuse. I told you that I usually follow the news on media channels that have a long tradition behind them and tend to appeal to the more educated layers of society by providing a degree of quality in the service they are providing.

   I didn’t want to give names. Because some don’t like Al-Jazeera. I like the BBC, you don’t like like CNN but I like it. I like France 24 and my favorite is perhaps the DW because they have a good coverage in many languages. France 2 is not too bad. I also buy “Der Spiegel” when it’s interesting and when I have time to read it. “Le Monde” is a great journal. But it’s export good. I don’t read it. But my friends who are in international relation read it (they read its monthly edition, and it’s highly informative).

    But on a daily basis it’s mostly yahoo new I am reading. It will lead you to many different news channels. So I ignore some sources and maintain the one that are similar to those mentioned above. And whenever I am shocked or I have doubts (like when I read something shocking on ukrainska Pravda) I’ll go check the other sources to see if it really happened.

Example: Russian casualities in Ukraine are not 300, or 1000. It’s 80,000 at least.

Proof: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/...916_4.html

- Does this answer your question?
 

Quote:“Well, let's go back a few years, review what these highly reliable official sources were telling us, and think about what's happened since.

Did you believe it when the New York Times and all the other corporate media outlets told us that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, was capable of an imminent attack on the US, and had something to do with 9-11? Because that's what they told us. And the journalists who said it was a lie were fired. 

And it turned out to be a lie.”

 
 
- Yes. That’s what the big man is saying. “You took Iraq by force so I can take Crimea by force”
 
But I remember that era. I don’t remember any serious news outlet telling us that there were chemical weapons in Iraq. CNN was telling that there “might be” chemical or biological weapons or that Saddam might be on the brink of developing those weapons. Or it was some “experts” who were giving these statements.
 
  And later, shoes were thrown at George W. Bush. There were demonstration held in my country with slogans like “Did you hear? A murderer is coming into town”. And everybody was furious, and many are still furious because of George W. Bushes decision to invade Iraq.

   But the media reported most of it. There were many debates with many experts talking. With many theories about the US’s real intentions behind this war. In short it was another disaster for Bush and the U.S.. But I don’t remember the media lying to me about this.

   And as a note: The U.S. could have, or could have attempted to create false evidence on this issue (Just like the Wagner mercenaries in Mali who were uncovered by satellite imagery burying two dozen of corpses in the desert with the intention of blaming French soldiers for this event.)

(November 1, 2022 at 3:35 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(October 31, 2022 at 4:59 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: They went into WWI after Bismark sunk one of their ships and so they went in “To protect democracy and human rights”. This scenario repeated itself in WWII.

WWI:
Bismarck died in 1898. He predicted a war 20 years after his death if the German emperor would not continue Bismarcks policies.
The sinking of the Lusitania was indirect a result of Tritpitz´ fleet program, which was however focused on surface combat.

WWII:
Germany declared war on the USA!!!!!
Although, the US had already been heavily supporting the UK with the "Lend and Lease" program, flying patrols over the atlantic (one of which detected the german battleship Bismarck), and a US WWI destroyer was sunk by a german sub (or was it only an attack?) before war was declared. Anyway, the destroyer was on pretty agressive sub partol duty.
So, its a bit complex, but Germany declared war on the US, period.

- Yes. I think I should check my Wikipedia more often.

I just don’t remember all the details. Sorry.

(November 1, 2022 at 8:33 am)Helios Wrote:

Quote:So Ukraine reported that 10 Russian missiles evaded interception, and then went on to damage critical infrastructure at 18 points. NY Times is unable to confirm these reports, perhaps because they can count.

And?

This tactic will fail just like all the others Russia's tried. Your buddy Putin continues to show his weakness.

Russia has lost the war. This is simply more proof of this.

And... the People of Kyiv are queuing in front of the fountains in the recreational park of Kyiv in order to be able to collect some water for their daily necessities.  Many don't have heating or electricity either. And their resolve seems very strong.
 
Again: This is high level war correspondence we are seeing here. And 8 of them were killed since the beginning of the conflict.
And I will leave you with this web link as a tribute to those who left their lives in their duty of informing the world on what has been going on in the Ukrainian conflict:
https://rsf.org/en/six-months-war-ukrain...sts-killed

(November 1, 2022 at 8:17 am)Belacqua Wrote: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/world...water.html

Quote:The Ukrainian military said Russia fired 55 missiles on Monday, 45 of which were shot down. Thirteen civilians were injured, the Ukrinform news agency reported. The Foreign Ministry said 18 “objects of civilian critical infrastructure” were damaged. None of the figures could be confirmed independently.

So Ukraine reported that 10 Russian missiles evaded interception, and then went on to damage critical infrastructure at 18 points. NY Times is unable to confirm these reports, perhaps because they can count.

You understand that, depending on the missile, one missile is capable of causing damage to more than one target, right?

Boru

(November 1, 2022 at 2:45 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 1, 2022 at 8:17 am)Belacqua Wrote: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/world...water.html


So Ukraine reported that 10 Russian missiles evaded interception, and then went on to damage critical infrastructure at 18 points. NY Times is unable to confirm these reports, perhaps because they can count.

You understand that, depending on the missile, one missile is capable of causing damage to more than one target, right?

Boru

The missiles in question are either "Bazalt" or "Kalibr" with 1000kg, or 500kg warheads respectively. How big is the blast radius? Well 2-3 weeks ago they found yet another 500kg WWII dud in Frankfurt. A whole effing quarter with some 20k people within 1km got evacuated (like everytime we dig those duds out).



Now that is a "no risk taken" safety radius. Of course the blast radius where significant damage will be caused with certianty is much smaller.
but
Does it take a rocket scientist to imagine that within that blast radius of a Kalibr or Bazalt, there are possibly, just possibly......more than one building/target?
and
that maybe, just maybe, the Russians try to be effective and hit areas with more than one possible target?

Does that really take a rocket scientist?
Or let me put it another way: Ukrainian officials are probably able to count, as is the NYT. I have serious doubts about Bel tho.

(November 1, 2022 at 2:38 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(November 1, 2022 at 8:33 am)Helios Wrote: And?

This tactic will fail just like all the others Russia's tried. Your buddy Putin continues to show his weakness.

Russia has lost the war. This is simply more proof of this.

And... the People of Kyiv are queuing in front of the fountains in the recreational park of Kyiv in order to be able to collect some water for their daily necessities.  Many don't have heating or electricity either. And their resolve seems very strong.
 
Again: This is high level war correspondence we are seeing here. And 8 of them were killed since the beginning of the conflict.
And I will leave you with this web link as a tribute to those who left their lives in their duty of informing the world on what has been going on in the Ukrainian conflict:
https://rsf.org/en/six-months-war-ukrain...sts-killed

Mr. Putin apparently has not learned the lesson that you can't pound a country into submission.

It didn't work During the Blitz for the Germans
It didn't work on the Japanese during the firebombing campaigns
It didn't work at Nanking for the Japanese 
It didn't work on the Germans for the Allies
It didn't work at Stalingrad or Leningrad  for the Germans
It didn't work in Vietnam for the Americans 
It didn't work in the Balkans for NATO

A people will fight you over the burning ruins of their country and are willing to face hardship in spite of their invaders.

(November 1, 2022 at 2:23 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: - Does this answer your question?

Yes, thank you.

Quote:The U.S. could have, or could have attempted to create false evidence on this issue (Just like the Wagner mercenaries in Mali who were uncovered by satellite imagery burying two dozen of corpses in the desert with the intention of blaming French soldiers for this event.)

The US certainly creates false evidence. They lie.

All sides lie, especially when they're at war. 

We should be extraordinarily skeptical of all sides.

Physician, heal thyself.

One does truly wonder whether it would help you, at any rate, to take your own advice. There's only one salient factor in the russo-ukranian war, and it's that russia has invaded a country full of people who can and will fight back. Unless you doubt that the ukranians are...in fact, ukranian...no amount of being skeptical about any other claim amounts to shit, explains your shit takes, or gives you cover for flinging shit all over the subject of those ukranian's lives.