(December 21, 2022 at 8:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(December 21, 2022 at 3:54 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Puts me in mind of a scene from The Lion In Winter:

Henry II: The Vexin’s mine.

Phillip II: By what authority?

Henry II: It’s got my troops all over it, that makes it mine.

Boru

And that's essentially what IA and his fellow-travelers are arguing: might makes right.

I was thinking more along the lines of Putin’s illegal annexation of those four regions. Pretty hard to claim them as his when they’re positively infested with Ukrainian troops.

Boru

(December 21, 2022 at 8:40 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 21, 2022 at 8:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: And that's essentially what IA and his fellow-travelers are arguing: might makes right.

I was thinking more along the lines of Putin’s illegal annexation of those four regions. Pretty hard to claim them as his when they’re positively infested with Ukrainian troops.

Boru

And Ukrainians in general.

(December 21, 2022 at 9:53 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(December 21, 2022 at 2:57 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: blahblahblah

You can write all of that blather but still cannot be bothered to provide evidence for your claim. You are indeed an Internet Bullshit Artist and will be treated as such henceforth.

What a stupid cunt.

So you dismiss the Cosby accusers off hand, you think Casey Antony had nothing to do with her daughter's death, and you think Dick Cheney never lied and he legitimately thought there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Thanks for admitting it.

(December 21, 2022 at 2:45 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 21, 2022 at 1:29 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Or a thing that ukranians wouldn't want, for that matter.  How hard was the pitch going to be, really?  "We've got guns, yall want some guns?"

But it clearly doesn’t matter what Ukraine wants (at least according to IA). They are simply a lackey of Western Imperialism and don’t care about trivial shit like self-determination. It’s much easier to wait for Boris to tell them what to do.

Boru

If NATO wasn't providing all of the weapons, I'd be fine with Ukraine fighting to the last man, if that's what they wanted to do. What I'm not fine with, is a war between NATO and Russia, which is happening now, unofficially. What I'm not fine with, is us going deep into Russia to attack their bases. We did that. NATO. And Ukrainians are freezing right now because of NATO.

Should Ukraine have accepted the peace deal? Who the hell knows. The West/United States was arming rebels in Syria knowing that those weapons were mostly falling into the hands of Al Qaeda and Isis and their affiliates, and now NATO is going deep into Russia to attack their bases. That's a hair away from WWIII. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton brought open slave markets back to the streets of Libya, so why would the US getting involved in things ever be a bad idea? I don't know. NATO are the good guys, right, so what is there to worry about? A world war has never happened before, right, twice, so like Helios says, we should just assume that a world war is never going to happen again. Nukes are irrelevant. They may as well not exist, etc, etc. This is what I'm told by Helios.

Quote:So you dismiss the Cosby accusers off hand, you think Casey Antony had nothing to do with her daughter's death, and you think Dick Cheney never lied and he legitimately thought there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Thanks for admitting it.

He didn't say that and you still have not provided a lick of evidence ....

Quote:If NATO wasn't providing all of the weapons, I'd be fine with Ukraine fighting to the last man, if that's what they wanted to do. What I'm not fine with, is a war between NATO and Russia, which is happening now, unofficially. What I'm not fine with, is us going deep into Russia to attack their bases. We did that. NATO. And Ukrainians are freezing right now because of NATO.

There is no war between NATO and Russia. It a war between Ukraine and Russia and were not going anywhere Ukraine is to defend itself from bombing runs and Ukrainians are freezing because Russia is bombing their power plants. That has nothing to do with NATO.

Quote:Should Ukraine have accepted the peace deal? Who the hell knows. 

No we do know that Putin is untrustworthy so no they should not have accepted the deal and now that they are winning it's even clearer they should not have.

Quote:The West/United States was arming rebels in Syria knowing that those weapons were mostly falling into the hands of Al Qaeda and Isis and their affiliates, and now NATO is going deep into Russia to attack their bases.That's a hair away from WWIII. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton brought open slave markets back to the streets of Libya, so why would the US getting involved in things ever be a bad idea? I don't know. NATO are the good guys, right, so what is there to worry about? A world war has never happened before, right, twice, so like Helios says, we should just assume that a world war is never going to happen again. Nukes are irrelevant. They may as well not exist, etc, etc. This is what I'm told by Helios.

Whataboutism. This isn't any of those places or those wars so the comparison doesn't work.WW3 isn't happening nor is Russia going to use its nukes if they even can use them...



All your objections suck...

With the help of the US, the war in Ukraine will be over by spring. And imagine that, with something like 5% of the US defense budget the Russian military has been vaporized and reduced it to a laughing stock.

Eat your heart out, IA.

(December 22, 2022 at 7:05 am)Helios Wrote:

Quote:If NATO wasn't providing all of the weapons, I'd be fine with Ukraine fighting to the last man, if that's what they wanted to do. What I'm not fine with, is a war between NATO and Russia, which is happening now, unofficially. What I'm not fine with, is us going deep into Russia to attack their bases. We did that. NATO. And Ukrainians are freezing right now because of NATO.

There is no war between NATO and Russia. It a war between Ukraine and Russia and were not going anywhere Ukraine is to defend itself from bombing runs and Ukrainians are freezing because Russia is bombing their power plants. That has nothing to do with NATO.

Quote:Should Ukraine have accepted the peace deal? Who the hell knows. 

No we do know that Putin is untrustworthy so no they should not have accepted the deal and now that they are winning it's even clearer they should not have.

Quote:The West/United States was arming rebels in Syria knowing that those weapons were mostly falling into the hands of Al Qaeda and Isis and their affiliates, and now NATO is going deep into Russia to attack their bases.That's a hair away from WWIII. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton brought open slave markets back to the streets of Libya, so why would the US getting involved in things ever be a bad idea? I don't know. NATO are the good guys, right, so what is there to worry about? A world war has never happened before, right, twice, so like Helios says, we should just assume that a world war is never going to happen again. Nukes are irrelevant. They may as well not exist, etc, etc. This is what I'm told by Helios.

Whataboutism. This isn't any of those places or those wars so the comparison doesn't work.WW3 isn't happening nor is Russia going to use its nukes if they even can use them...



All your objections suck...

And did attacking the base actually stop any bombing runs or stop anyone from freezing to death? So you attacked the base for little gain, and a whole boat load of risk. Not a bright decision. And wouldn't Ukraine have needed the help of Western intelligence to be able to pull off the strike on the base? Evading Russian detection and all of that? Is that really something they would be capable of all on their own? Sounds highly doubtful. The US and NATO has been helping with intelligence and logistics and all of that in Ukraine, so that makes it our war. There is no way around it.

(December 22, 2022 at 5:54 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: If NATO wasn't providing all of the weapons, I'd be fine with Ukraine fighting to the last man, if that's what they wanted to do. What I'm not fine with, is a war between NATO and Russia, which is happening now, unofficially. What I'm not fine with, is us going deep into Russia to attack their bases. We did that. NATO. And Ukrainians are freezing right now because of NATO.

NATO hasn't provided all the weapons.  The majority of the kit in ukraine on both sides is of soviet origin..in fact, russia..in it's current incarnation, has provided more equipment to ukraine than the us has by abandoning it on the field.  Meanwhile, we, as in NATO, are not going deep into russia.  Ukraine would probably like to, and the truth is they have (and have always had) the capability to do so - but they have to balance that with it's effect on NATO support - the line having been drawn against precisely that.  

Quote:Should Ukraine have accepted the peace deal? Who the hell knows. The West/United States was arming rebels in Syria knowing that those weapons were mostly falling into the hands of Al Qaeda and Isis and their affiliates, and now NATO is going deep into Russia to attack their bases. That's a hair away from WWIII. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton brought open slave markets back to the streets of Libya, so why would the US getting involved in things ever be a bad idea? I don't know. NATO are the good guys, right, so what is there to worry about? A world war has never happened before, right, twice, so like Helios says, we should just assume that a world war is never going to happen again. Nukes are irrelevant. They may as well not exist, etc, etc. This is what I'm told by Helios.

You know who knows?  Ukraine knows.  They told them to fuck off.  All this hand wringing about ww3 is just you and anyone else so afflicted completely ignoring ukranian interests.  What are they supposed to do?  Let the russians kill them so that -you- can live?  Wars don't have good guys.  There's nothing good about war.  Perhaps you could go to russia and have a talk with putin, explain that to him, and suggest that he should let the ukranians kill him so that you can live?

Quote:And did attacking the base actually stop any bombing runs or stop anyone from freezing to death? So you attacked the base for little gain, and a whole boat load of risk. Not a bright decision. And wouldn't Ukraine have needed the help of Western intelligence to be able to pull off the strike on the base? Evading Russian detection and all of that? Is that really something they would be capable of all on their own? Sounds highly doubtful. The US and NATO has been helping with intelligence and logistics and all of that in Ukraine, so that makes it our war. There is no way around it.

Yes.  Attacking the airfields and launchpads, destroying bombers and forward control sites, effects russias ability to continue terror bombing ukranians.  To the point that they're out there hat in hand begging iran for weapons. Whatever russia can still pull off, after that, is less than what they would have done, and were doing, otherwise.  That's gotta be one of the silliest questions I've ever heard.  "Hey guys, does blowing up bombers stop some bombs...?"  

.....?

As far as what ukraine is capable of on their own, a hell of alot - and a cursory exploration of how they managed to ambush the worlds "second best army" -before- they had help might be interesting to you. It's the whole reason they got any help in the first place. The war started in february for us as western media consumers, but it's already eight years running for them. They had a track record of embarrassing the invaders with the cut rate shit and smaller force that they already had. In the process, they created reams of action review data that NATO planners will be pouring over for the next few decades, and would be even if they'd fallen. Free of the constraints that western support imposes, I think you might see them doing all sorts of amusing shit that is only off the table for now. These are people who busted one of their own dams and flooded one of their own cities to swallow up an armored column and completely halt the enemy advance. Who sent assassins "deep into russia" to kill putins spirit animal..who is now calling for putins head. People who turned twitter into an actual weapon, and have repeatedly used it against their incompetent foe. A country roughly the size of texas, with antique equipment, that stopped an alleged nuclear superpower cold.

Quote:And did attacking the base actually stop any bombing runs or stop anyone from freezing to death?

Did blowing up the place where the bombers launch from lessen bombing runs?  Are you for real? Well, it sure as hell stopped more bombers than sitting there and doing nothing and letting Russia use those bases

Quote:So you attacked the base for little gain, and a whole boat load of risk. Not a bright decision.

Nope, plenty of gain for little risk as Russia isn't going to retaliate anymore than it already is and Ukraine knows it. So it's a very bright move...

Quote:And wouldn't Ukraine have needed the help of Western intelligence to be able to pull off the strike on the base? Evading Russian detection and all of that? Is that really something they would be capable of all on their own? Sounds highly doubtful.

Ukraine has shown itself more than capable of carrying out its own intelligence operations And is more than capable of slipping through Russia's ancient or  questionable detection systems, And it's silly you think otherwise.

Quote:The US and NATO has been helping with intelligence and logistics and all of that in Ukraine, so that makes it our war. There is no way around it.

Nope sharing intel and supplies does not make it our war no matter how much you keep insisting it is. This is Ukraine's war we are simply helping them fight it.Again you have clue what you are talking about and are desprate to push your narrative no matter how much it conflicts with reality.