(March 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 13, 2023 at 8:07 pm)Helios Wrote: It's truly pathetic that IA thinks anybody actually wants the war to last a day let alone 10 years (which it won't because will lose by the end of this year). We want the war to end now. But the condition of that is Russia GTFO of regions of Ukraine it took by force illegally anything else isn't peace. How is it peaceful to reward aggression? And yeah we will show the Russian Apologists the dead Ukrainians these pathetic simps peddling Russian talking points and ridiculous bothsidism because they need to see the aggression they are defending, justifying, and pretending has any merit at all. Were the side of peace because we want to punish a regime that has flaunted peace and brought war through subterfuge and invasion. While they want to reward that regime with land and concessions and a might makes right midset of international politics. Anyone who thinks that is being peaceful is delusional.

NATO said recently that Ukraine will be let into NATO eventually, ruining the prospect of peace anytime soon. Russia is in this till the bitter end now, as they probably should be.

ital mine.....

Why?  Why is whether or not ukraine decides to be in nato russia's business, and russia's business to decide by invasion and genocide, if so?   What kind of "peacenik" says that russia should be in their war, to the bitter end, because of this?  

Temet nosce.

...and about those bitter ends. Just how long do you think russia can sustain the rates of loss observed? Forever?

(March 13, 2023 at 11:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(March 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: NATO said recently that Ukraine will be let into NATO eventually, ruining the prospect of peace anytime soon. Russia is in this till the bitter end now, as they probably should be.

ital mine.....

Why?  Why is whether or not ukraine decides to be in nato russia's business, and russia's business to decide by invasion and genocide, if so?   What kind of "peacenik" says that russia should be in their war, to the bitter end, because of this?  

Temet nosce.

...and about those bitter ends.  Just how long do you think russia can sustain the rates of loss observed?  Forever?

I'm remembering something about the USSR turning over large amounts of uranium to the US after the breakup. No idea about their nukes, though. Interesting fact, fissile material degrades over time, and a new nuke is not the same as an old nuke, and an old nuke may not function the same.

The classic "what if we're bargaining with a suicidal madman" dilemma at the bottom of every russian well.

(March 13, 2023 at 11:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(March 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: NATO said recently that Ukraine will be let into NATO eventually, ruining the prospect of peace anytime soon. Russia is in this till the bitter end now, as they probably should be.

ital mine.....

Why?  Why is whether or not ukraine decides to be in nato russia's business, and russia's business to decide by invasion and genocide, if so?   What kind of "peacenik" says that russia should be in their war, to the bitter end, because of this?  

Temet nosce.

...and about those bitter ends.  Just how long do you think russia can sustain the rates of loss observed?  Forever?

Russia's geo-political power and status is being threatened, and NATO wants to encroach even closer to its' borders. Also, Putin is terrified of ethnic Russians dying out, since there are far less young ethnic Russians than there are older ones. He's panicking, and the power grab and preventing things from falling apart is either going to happen now, or never, so he's choosing now. Letting Ukraine become a part of NATO is not an option for Putin and his survival.

NATO was not fully publicly committed to letting Ukraine in for sure in the future, and they kept a more neutral stance, which was a better sign for prospects for peace, but now NATO is saying for sure, there will come a day Ukraine joins. How is Russia supposed to react to that kind of massive increased provocation towards their country?

Why should China not start arming Russia when China sees that they could be next?



China warns US to change course or risk conflict.

Oh no, not an option for putin, not an option for putins survival? The russian master race is demographically doomed? That's definitely should-making, lol.


I can think of 600billion reasons, in usd - not worthless fucking rubles, that china might want to think long and hard about aligning itself with russias invasion.

(March 13, 2023 at 11:55 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Russia's geo-political power and status is being threatened, and NATO wants to encroach even closer to its' borders.

So NATO exists so countries could protect themselves from Russia, so Russia invaded Ukraine to protect themselves from Ukraine joining NATO thus validating the existence of NATO because if you are not in NATO, Russia will attack you. Not to mention that Ukraine did not plan to join NATO until the Russians invaded them.

Quote:Russia's geo-political power and status is being threatened,

A self-inflicted wound due to its own belligerent policies with neighbors. No country is entitled to power at the cost of others. 

Quote:and NATO wants to encroach even closer to its' borders. 

NATO is already at the Russian border via the Baltic states. You didn't see Putin throwing a fit and launching an invasion then. This isn't about borders it's about Putin's belief Ukraine shouldn't be a country of its own. He has said as much.

Quote:Also, Putin is terrified of ethnic Russians dying out, since there are far less young ethnic Russians than there are older ones.

Ethnicity is not justification for invading another country. That's some Lebensraum bullshit. If Britain's population was dying out it wouldn't give them the right to invade Australia and look for the ethnically pure brits. 

Quote:He's panicking, and the power grab and preventing things from falling apart is either going to happen now, or never, so he's choosing now. Letting Ukraine become a part of NATO is not an option for Putin and his survival.

Ukraine joining NATO was never a threat to Russia any more than any other eastern European state that joined before it. Putin wasn't panicking he's been  quite lucid on his reasons why Ukraine should not exist and should be absorbed back into Russia. These aren't the acts of a desperate man these are the acts of an imperialist trying to reassert his domain at someone else's expense.

Quote:NATO was not fully publicly committed to letting Ukraine in for sure in the future, and they kept a more neutral stance, which was a better sign for prospects for peace, but now NATO is saying for sure, there will come a day Ukraine joins. How is Russia supposed to react to that kind of massive increased provocation towards their country?

There is absolutely no reason NATO should take a neutral stance and no reason Ukraine as the sovereign state doesn't have the right to join NATO. Neither of these is a provocation or a reason for Russia to act like a whiny child that's not getting its way. Russia has no say in Ukraine's foreign policy or NATO policy.

Quote:Why should China not start arming Russia when China sees that they could be next?

Pure delusion 


So to sum up you have given no rational reason for the invasion. Just Kremlin talking points and foreign policy fanfiction 

(March 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: NATO said recently that Ukraine will be let into NATO eventually, ruining the prospect of peace anytime soon. Russia is in this till the bitter end now, as they probably should be.

Thank you for providing us YOUR definition of a "peacenik": Someone who thinks an invading nation is justified to push its invasion to the bitter end just because the victim
a) defending itself
and
b) looking for alliances

You know hwo ruined prospects for peace in the first place: Russia............by annexing foreign territory in 2014
Read it up, and youll find out that *gasp* thats fucking illegal accoring to international law.

(March 14, 2023 at 12:43 am)Helios Wrote:

Quote:Russia's geo-political power and status is being threatened,

A self-inflicted wound due to its own belligerent policies with neighbors. No country is entitled to power at the cost of others. 

Quote:and NATO wants to encroach even closer to its' borders. 

NATO is already at the Russian border via the Baltic states. You didn't see Putin throwing a fit and launching an invasion then. This isn't about borders it's about Putin's belief Ukraine shouldn't be a country of its own. He has said as much.

Quote:Also, Putin is terrified of ethnic Russians dying out, since there are far less young ethnic Russians than there are older ones.

Ethnicity is not justification for invading another country. That's some Lebensraum bullshit. If Britain's population was dying out it wouldn't give them the right to invade Australia and look for the ethnically pure brits. 

Quote:He's panicking, and the power grab and preventing things from falling apart is either going to happen now, or never, so he's choosing now. Letting Ukraine become a part of NATO is not an option for Putin and his survival.

Ukraine joining NATO was never a threat to Russia any more than any other eastern European state that joined before it. Putin wasn't panicking he's been  quite lucid on his reasons why Ukraine should not exist and should be absorbed back into Russia. These aren't the acts of a desperate man these are the acts of an imperialist trying to reassert his domain at someone else's expense.

Quote:NATO was not fully publicly committed to letting Ukraine in for sure in the future, and they kept a more neutral stance, which was a better sign for prospects for peace, but now NATO is saying for sure, there will come a day Ukraine joins. How is Russia supposed to react to that kind of massive increased provocation towards their country?

There is absolutely no reason NATO should take a neutral stance and no reason Ukraine as the sovereign state doesn't have the right to join NATO. Neither of these is a provocation or a reason for Russia to act like a whiny child that's not getting its way. Russia has no say in Ukraine's foreign policy or NATO policy.

Quote:Why should China not start arming Russia when China sees that they could be next?

Pure delusion 


So to sum up you have given no rational reason for the invasion. Just Kremlin talking points and foreign policy fanfiction 

His (political) naivety combind with lack of regard for other peopel of other nations is shocking. I bet he has no clue about his own stance.

A ton of eastern european countries have joined NATO for exactly the same reason Ukraine (and now Finland and Sweden) is. They pose the same, if not a bigger threat (look at polands stance toward Russia, its poilicy and weapons sent to Ukraine). Would IA been aOK with Russia invaing all of those too?

(March 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 13, 2023 at 8:07 pm)Helios Wrote: It's truly pathetic that IA thinks anybody actually wants the war to last a day let alone 10 years (which it won't because will lose by the end of this year). We want the war to end now. But the condition of that is Russia GTFO of regions of Ukraine it took by force illegally anything else isn't peace. How is it peaceful to reward aggression? And yeah we will show the Russian Apologists the dead Ukrainians these pathetic simps peddling Russian talking points and ridiculous bothsidism because they need to see the aggression they are defending, justifying, and pretending has any merit at all. Were the side of peace because we want to punish a regime that has flaunted peace and brought war through subterfuge and invasion. While they want to reward that regime with land and concessions and a might makes right midset of international politics. Anyone who thinks that is being peaceful is delusional.

NATO said recently that Ukraine will be let into NATO eventually, ruining the prospect of peace anytime soon. Russia is in this till the bitter end now, as they probably should be.

Why do you think NATO said that 'recently'? Bearing in mind that the whole purpose of NATO is to serve as a counter to Russian expansion in Europe, can you think of a single event on the world stage that made the expansion of the alliance suddenly seem like a good, even necessary, step?

I agree with you, though, that the end of this war, whenever it comes, is going to be extremely bitter for Russia.

Boru