Quote:The better question I think would be, why did NATO refrain until recently from saying that Ukraine would eventually join NATO for sure?

Because they don't have to refrain from making alliance and inducting new members because Russia gets triggered that European nations would rather align with the west then them. Russia is like a clingy partner who can't over the fact the relationship is over.

Quote:Because they knew saying as much would be a massive provocation towards the Russian Federation, but now it's been said, and there's no taking those words back.

A NATO could break wind and Russia would declare it a major provocation. I'm sorry NATO doesn't take Russia bipolar foreign policy into account when it exercises it right to bring a free and sovereign state under it's protection for it's deranged Tsundere neighbor.

Quote:So people like Nudge can say that they'd like the war to end today, but that's fantasy talk. 

No it fucking could end today if Russia GTFO and stopped fucking acting like the bitchy Karen neighbor whose mad that children are playing with chalk on the sidewalk. 

Quote:I'm sure Al Qaeda would like to beat America today as well, if it was as easy as just saying you'd like it to happen.

The big difference being half a world away and the Russian border with Ukraine is a stone throw away. 

Quote:The actions of Ukraine and NATO are begging for a long, drug out war to the bitter end.

Nope the actions of Russia are begging for a short and humiliating war. 

Quote: And if people are ok with that as long as it leads to a NATO and Ukrainian victory, then that's fine and a position that I'm sure can be defended, but those people shouldn't at the same time be pretending like they're trying to push for the war to end today or they want the war to be over ASAP, because it's just not true.

Actually it is true Russia could end the war at any time and stop being a giant fucking baby because no one wants to be their friend. Russia's own belligerent policies in it's region are the reason eastern European countries are flocking to NATO. So this idea that NATO provoked Russia is bullshit.

Quote:I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO.ut for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

Then you are a fucking hypocrite because you would deny other people who are in a much more vulnerable position then you the protection you are happy to indulge in. And no Ukraine should have to fall to Russia doing so will not bring about stability or peace it will signal to every tin pot lunatic dictator that open season. And yes they will likely get Crimea back and war will lose and they will look like a total loser and there is fuck all they can do about that aside cope and seethe and it will be a deserved defeat and it will signal to every other looney despot with delusions of empire that this isn't the 1930s.


Again you prove your a total clown 

Quote:Which just speaks to my lack of bigotry lol. Thanks for making my point for me. I defend Afghani brown kids being bombed but not white Ukrainian kids. I think I deserve an equity and inclusion award or something

Actually all it proves is your selective in which whites you'll defend and if it suits your anti western bullshit you'll defend brown people too. But they are just props really.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:14 am)Tomato Wrote:

No actually you not all that wrong 

Quote:Perhaps that ship has sailed, but that won't stop this from being a long war.

Russia could pull out at any time and no this will not be a long war. Russian can't afford a long war.

Quote:And the peacenik label is in regards to me being overly cautious and hesitant to support a proxy war between nuclear armed nations, pipelines being blown up, and things of that nature. 

No it makes hysteric lunatic. This isn't a proxy war . There is never going to be a modern nuclear war. And a fucking pipeline is blip.

Quote:Peace can be defined that way, or of course, there is peace through superior firepower. 

There is nothing peaceful about rewarding aggression and telling nation being invaded to roll the fuck over and the invaders win. That's not peace that's apathy.

Quote:Words are funny like that and can be interpreted in different ways.

No they really can't. Your not pushing peace your simply pushing apathy and your mindset will not end in a peaceful world.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:01 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

Churchill once defined appeasement as the act of feeding one's friends to the crocodile in the hope that the croc will be sated by the time he gets to you. Of course, living in Canada, you don't even have that worry as an excuse for your willingness to throw the Ukrainians into servitude and terror.

Instead, you argue that this world is very unsafe with a war going on ad one of its participants is busy rattling the nuclear saber, and so you'd rather sacrifice the liberties of tens of millions of Ukrainians in order to pacify your fears.

I, on the other hand, consider that a world where liberties can be extinguished by main force without repercussions would be far more unsafe, putting many millions and perhaps billions of people at risk. Should your counsels be shared by those in the halls of NATO and Kyiv, autocracies both big and small will have learned that 1) we don't believe freedom is worth fighting and dying for, and 2) nuclear blackmail will be paid out, with the independence of free nations as the currency of choice.

I regard that sort of world as much more dangerous.

Both more dangerous, and less just. The fears and shoulds argument doesn't actually terminate in surrender to russia. It powerfully argues against such a course of action for the reasons self stated by the seekers of safety or of moral warrant. AKA, waffling bullshit.

In mere reality, a triumphant russia is not safer or morally warranted - more that russia made a concerted effort to manufacture common propagandistic cause with western white supremacists, and this is the sole and actual reason that IA expresses the positions that he does. It's not more complicated, it's exactly that stupid, and neither Vlad nor IA can manage enough self control to occlude that fact for even a moment.

It was so nice of Bel to hand the Baton of BS off to IA.

-and arguably unkind of IA to make his equivalence to Bel on this issue so apparent.

(March 14, 2023 at 8:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -and arguably unkind of IA to make his equivalence to Bel on this issue so apparent.

(March 14, 2023 at 7:48 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Both more dangerous, and less just.  The fears and shoulds argument doesn't actually terminate in surrender to russia.  It powerfully argues against such a course of action for the reasons self stated by the seekers of safety or of moral warrant.  AKA, waffling bullshit.

I didn't really address the justice of the Ukrainian cause precisely because I wanted to to avoid the slipshod ambiguity that would be invited in the reply, but yes. The justice of their cause is precisely why even before the current invasion launched I was hoping for its defeat. Assholes need to be smackmouthed.

I was bullied as a kid and learnt this the hard way. Standing up against a bully is always the right thing ... unless you prefer to kneel, I suppose.