(March 14, 2023 at 4:18 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: NATO said recently that Ukraine will be let into NATO eventually, ruining the prospect of peace anytime soon. Russia is in this till the bitter end now, as they probably should be.

Why do you think NATO said that 'recently'? Bearing in mind that the whole purpose of NATO is to serve as a counter to Russian expansion in Europe, can you think of a single event on the world stage that made the expansion of the alliance suddenly seem like a good, even necessary, step?

I agree with you, though, that the end of this war, whenever it comes, is going to be extremely bitter for Russia.

Boru

It’s not only against Russia. Before WWII the Society of Nations had failed to prevent Hitler’s expansionism. So after the armistice there was an alliance of democracies led by the US (NATO) + the Pact of Warsaw for socialist countries. In today’s perspective it can also be seen as an alliance against any other threat from a country with a nuclear arsenal, Like China for instance.
 
Anyway. NATO is a defensive alliance and it’s a very successful alliance. You don’t need to be scared from a NATO country if you are not an expansionist nation.
 
There are other costs of war like the psychological toll on men who fight in the front. I found a nice article on that:
“Vilena Kit, a psychologist who works with soldiers as well as survivors of domestic violence, says soldiers are at a high risk of developing post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a mental condition triggered by a traumatic event. One of the biggest challenges she found when working with veterans from the 2014 conflict in the Donbas was alcoholism, which . Vilena says there was a wave of domestic abuse after soldiers came back from fighting in the Donbas and predicts there will be another big wave once the current war is over. “The worst is still to come,” she says.”
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/war-made-him-...25550.html
 
One interesting movie on this issue is the 1989 movie “Born on the Fourth of July” with Tom Cruise.
 
And of course the collateral damage is mostly on the partners, mothers and families of all these men. Many of them will have to be psychologically treated for a long period.

(March 14, 2023 at 4:18 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: NATO said recently that Ukraine will be let into NATO eventually, ruining the prospect of peace anytime soon. Russia is in this till the bitter end now, as they probably should be.

Why do you think NATO said that 'recently'? Bearing in mind that the whole purpose of NATO is to serve as a counter to Russian expansion in Europe, can you think of a single event on the world stage that made the expansion of the alliance suddenly seem like a good, even necessary, step?

I agree with you, though, that the end of this war, whenever it comes, is going to be extremely bitter for Russia.

Boru

The better question I think would be, why did NATO refrain until recently from saying that Ukraine would eventually join NATO for sure? Because they knew saying as much would be a massive provocation towards the Russian Federation, but now it's been said, and there's no taking those words back.

So people like Nudge can say that they'd like the war to end today, but that's fantasy talk. I'm sure Al Qaeda would like to beat America today as well, if it was as easy as just saying you'd like it to happen. The actions of Ukraine and NATO are begging for a long, drug out war to the bitter end. And if people are ok with that as long as it leads to a NATO and Ukrainian victory, then that's fine and a position that I'm sure can be defended, but those people shouldn't at the same time be pretending like they're trying to push for the war to end today or they want the war to be over ASAP, because it's just not true.

I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

Poor white Ukranian kids (let them die by war) aren't on IA's radar like white kids being bullied by the blacks.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:04 am)Tomato Wrote: Poor white Ukranian kids (let them die by war) aren't on IA's radar like white kids being bullied by the blacks.

Which just speaks to my lack of bigotry lol. Thanks for making my point for me. I defend Afghani brown kids being bombed but not white Ukrainian kids. I think I deserve an equity and inclusion award or something.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:01 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 4:18 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why do you think NATO said that 'recently'? Bearing in mind that the whole purpose of NATO is to serve as a counter to Russian expansion in Europe, can you think of a single event on the world stage that made the expansion of the alliance suddenly seem like a good, even necessary, step?

I agree with you, though, that the end of this war, whenever it comes, is going to be extremely bitter for Russia.

Boru

The better question I think would be, why did NATO refrain until recently from saying that Ukraine would eventually join NATO for sure? Because they knew saying as much would be a massive provocation towards the Russian Federation, but now it's been said, and there's no taking those words back.

So people like Nudge can say that they'd like the war to end today, but that's fantasy talk. I'm sure Al Qaeda would like to beat America today as well, if it was as easy as just saying you'd like it to happen. The actions of Ukraine and NATO are begging for a long, drug out war to the bitter end. And if people are ok with that as long as it leads to a NATO and Ukrainian victory, then that's fine and a position that I'm sure can be defended, but those people shouldn't at the same time be pretending like they're trying to push for the war to end today or they want the war to be over ASAP, because it's just not true.

Correct.  Any notion that the war can be stopped short of a russian defeat is fantasy, just as the assumption that russia could do what it's been doing forever is a fantasy.   

Quote:I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

See above, re fantasy.  Russia already had crimea and donbas and luhansk, and they invaded anyway.  You're asking ukrainians to fall on a sword for you..up in battlefield canadia....which is at least honest and not some waffling bullshit about peace or the great western satan..but it's not as if those places being under russian hands stopped the russian invasion last year. Meanwhile, there's literally no way that russia comes away from this..even in victory over ukraine.... without looking like a complete and total loser. That ship sailed.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:16 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Correct.  Any notion that the war can be stopped short of a russian defeat is fantasy, just as the assumption that russia could do what it's been doing forever is a fantasy.   

Indeed, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that they have a goal that can only be achieved by war and not negotiations

Quote:"We have to achieve our goals. Right now this is only possible by military means due to the current position of the Kyiv regime," Russian state news agencies quoted Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov as saying.

Russia claims it is fighting in Ukraine to "liberate" Russian speakers in the eastern Donbas from what it has called a neo-Nazi regime in Kyiv.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kre...023-03-14/

So there you go, Russia is on an insane war mission, and the only way to handle them is to stop them. To beat them.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:16 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 10:01 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: The better question I think would be, why did NATO refrain until recently from saying that Ukraine would eventually join NATO for sure? Because they knew saying as much would be a massive provocation towards the Russian Federation, but now it's been said, and there's no taking those words back.

So people like Nudge can say that they'd like the war to end today, but that's fantasy talk. I'm sure Al Qaeda would like to beat America today as well, if it was as easy as just saying you'd like it to happen. The actions of Ukraine and NATO are begging for a long, drug out war to the bitter end. And if people are ok with that as long as it leads to a NATO and Ukrainian victory, then that's fine and a position that I'm sure can be defended, but those people shouldn't at the same time be pretending like they're trying to push for the war to end today or they want the war to be over ASAP, because it's just not true.

Correct.  Any notion that the war can be stopped short of a russian defeat is fantasy, just as the assumption that russia could do what it's been doing forever is a fantasy.    

Quote:I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

See above, re fantasy.  Russia already had crimea and donbas and luhansk, and they invaded anyway.  You're asking ukrainians to fall on a sword for you..up in battlefield canadia....which is at least honest and not some waffling bullshit about peace or the great western satan..but it's not as if those places being under russian hands stopped the russian invasion last year.  Meanwhile, there's literally no way that russia comes away from this..even in victory over ukraine.... without looking like a complete and total loser.  That ship sailed.

Perhaps that ship has sailed, but that won't stop this from being a long war. And the peacenik label is in regards to me being overly cautious and hesitant to support a proxy war between nuclear armed nations, pipelines being blown up, and things of that nature. Peace can be defined that way, or of course, there is peace through superior firepower. Words are funny like that and can be interpreted in different ways.

(March 14, 2023 at 10:01 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: I like that I, as a Canadian, have NATO protection. Love it. Loves me some NATO. But for the sake of world stability, no, I'm not really into the idea of giving Ukrainians the same protections that I have. I just can't go for it. The health of global stability takes precedence over the health of Ukrainians. So yes, my position is that unfortunately, Ukrainians should have to fall on the sword for the sake of the rest of the world, and you're not getting Crimea back, and the war doesn't end unless Russia comes away not looking like a complete and total loser.

There are words to describe someone like you, but i dont want to risk to be banned from this thread or the entire forum. Lets leave it at that.

The only redeeming quality of your character seems to be the self awareness that you better be a recognized as a shameless liar until now (about who bears responsibility) than to admit to what a miserable piece of shit you are. What caused this sudden grow of cojones to make this public admission?

A fucking selfish (yeah, because its about you and being uncomfy, not "the rest of the world") and spineless coward, thats what you are.

(March 14, 2023 at 11:13 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(March 14, 2023 at 10:16 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Correct.  Any notion that the war can be stopped short of a russian defeat is fantasy, just as the assumption that russia could do what it's been doing forever is a fantasy.    

See above, re fantasy.  Russia already had crimea and donbas and luhansk, and they invaded anyway.  You're asking ukrainians to fall on a sword for you..up in battlefield canadia....which is at least honest and not some waffling bullshit about peace or the great western satan..but it's not as if those places being under russian hands stopped the russian invasion last year.  Meanwhile, there's literally no way that russia comes away from this..even in victory over ukraine.... without looking like a complete and total loser.  That ship sailed.

Perhaps that ship has sailed, but that won't stop this from being a long war. And the peacenik label is in regards to me being overly cautious and hesitant to support a proxy war between nuclear armed nations, pipelines being blown up, and things of that nature. Peace can be defined that way, or of course, there is peace through superior firepower. Words are funny like that and can be interpreted in different ways.

It already has been a long war?  It's nearly a decade old at this point.  You aren't hesitant to support proxy wars, or pipelines being blown up, or anything of that nature.  You support those things, insomuch as they seem to you to provide "global security" for you in canada when russia does them to ukranians, who should fall on swords. Christ, summon up the tiniest bit of courage in your own stated convictions and stop cowering behind more waffling "what is word" bullshit.

You, are worried, that a madman with a nuke will blow you up. Why pretend it's anything other than a hostage situation, lol?