Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
August 15, 2023 at 10:05 am (This post was last modified: August 15, 2023 at 10:18 am by Thumpalumpacus.)
(August 15, 2023 at 5:33 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:
(August 6, 2023 at 6:03 am)arewethereyet Wrote: Let me see if I have this straight. You think that a country that has been invaded by another country should keep the invading country's monuments? As what? A reminder of the loss and destruction being caused?
That’s a country that doesn’t exist anymore. And Ukraine was a part of that country that no longer exists. So to me it’s like a Russian Cathedral built in Imperial times. A cultural heritage.
You don't seem to understand that there was -- and is -- a serious racist component to Russia's oppression that doesn't allow forgetfulness. Icons of the oppressor aren't needed. Ten million deaths made the oppression unforgettable.
Just so we're clear what we're talking about, here's some pictures. These are quite disturbing, so those readers at work may wish to leave them spoilered until a better time.
Quote:Kremlin Bizarrely Claims Goal of Demilitarizing Ukraine 'Largely Completed'
This point is particularly potent
Quote:"The special military operation was done for the sake of denazification and demilitarization," the Wagner leader said. "With regard to demilitarization...if they had 500 tanks at the beginning of the special operation, [now] they have 5,000 tanks. If they had 20,000 people able to fight skillfully, now 400,000 people know how to fight. How did we demilitarize it? It turns out that the opposite is true—we militarized her hell knows how."
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?” –SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
(August 16, 2023 at 2:19 pm)Helios Wrote: if they had 500 tanks at the beginning of the special operation, [now] they have 5,000 tanks. If they had 20,000 people able to fight skillfully, now 400,000 people know how to fight....
(August 15, 2023 at 5:55 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(August 15, 2023 at 5:45 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: You may be right.
The thing is: I don’t hate the USSR that much. You know, for instance path-finder, the first robot on the surface of Mars, was a result of US and Soviet engineering. Its predecessor was a remotely guided robot that was designed to operate on the Moon (pure Soviet design). The ISS is a result of US-Russia collaboration after the collapse of the Soviet-Union. I’m not saying it was heaven on earth. But Kiev was an important city within that country. So Was Azerbaijan, and Georgia and/or Kazakhstan for instance. There was a different social contract. A social contract that was partly based on Marxist ideology. So I see it as a political venture that didn’t work (for many reasons). DO you know that the game Tetris (a brick falling game that was the predecessor of modern video games) is of Russian design? American contractors had to find the designer of that game in Moscow in the late 80’s to get the royalties and commercialize the game in the rest of the world. Finally, in the 2010’s I went several times to listen to the Red Army Choir. I was very moved when the chief of that orchestra (also a relic of the past) said “War is terrible thing, I hope that no one in uniforms other than us ever comes to this beautiful country”. So I’m not a nostalgic. But Heyç Yuri Gagarin was from the Soviet Union. So that’s all I’m saying.
It's not about Pathinder. It's not about the ISS or social contracts or Tetris or the Red Army Choir or Yuri Gagarin. It's about whether you can grasp the notion that a country which was brutalized by the USSR might prefer to display its own symbols over Soviet-era ones.
Can you?
Boru
Yes I can.
But if you look at it this way, Russia was also brutalized by the USSR (20 million people died) and China was brutalized by Mao-Tse-Tong (50 Million deaths). When I talk about these issues to some left-wing people, these guys may reply me by saying “Yes but Stalin was our man of steel”. As I said I’m not a great fan of the Soviet Union, Especially not of Stalin. I don’t even like Lenin that much. But I want to remind people that bolshevism was a different social contract. I see it as an attempt to bring to live the vision of Karl Marx which was to create an intermediary authoritarian “proletariat dictatorship” that would lead the world to the utopia of Communism. Now today’s China does not have anything to do with such a project anymore. But the USSR did (at least partially) stand for something like that. Whenever I am brave enough to say that to anyone who has experienced that kind of communism, there is basically 2 reactions. One group will acknowledge that and will remember things like free education and healthcare, operas and other cultural activities that were designed for and attended by factory workers, miners, truck drivers etc. and all the other benefits of socialism. One very nice movie to see is the 2003 German movie featuring Daniel Brühl “Goodbye Lenin” on this transition from a socialist to a liberal Economy in East-Germany in the early 90’s. And the other group, will react like you did, telling me (for instance) about the atrocities of the Red-Army in Afghanistan or several young people dying in the hands of the secret police for listening to Western Rock-n-roll music for instance. And I know, by experience that both sides have their own argument. My position though, is that the USSR was not a terror state like Franco’s Spain or Italy under Mussolini for instance (nor was China before Deng-Xiao-Ping for instance). It’s just a model that people tried to adopt, because… well we all know the results of the excesses of capitalism right? So Fidel Castro, for instance, these were mostly highly educated and very curious people who explored several economic / social possibilities and (wrongly) concluded that they could lead the world to a better social contract by using very violent and oppressive means if they had to. /Hitler was different. His ideology was twisted, had nothing positive, rational or scientific in it. It was a total act of madness that inspired other fascists across the world to do terrible things mostly to their own populations. Anyway, we are a lucky generation who is not caught up in these ideological struggles that really agitated young people in Europe in the 60’s and 70’s. Instead we are dealing with climate denialism and neo-fascists rulers like Putin My only point here is that: Russia is not the USSR. Russia is a sovereign state with a liberal economy. It is borrowing almost all the propaganda elements of the USSR like “the imperialist West”, “Western Consumerism” or even the concept of “Nazi Germany”. Reminder: Nazi Germany did attack the USSR with the aim of destroying it. Hitler’s General’s did designate Ukrainian POW’s as “untermensch” (not humans) and the Ukrainians did suffer from Nazi aggression and (like Poland and/or Yugoslavia) they were actually liberated by the Red Army. There used to be very nice documentaries on WWII Europe on Nat-Geo or the discovery Channel in the past. As a summary: Hitler was no piece of cake and honestly, I don’t know if the allies would have managed him without Stalin. I think it would have been very difficult. To sum up: The sickle and hammer is no worse than the “fleur de Lys” (Symbol of French Monarchy). But, Ok, I think I got your point too. I think I would also want that symbol to go if I was in Kiev
(August 15, 2023 at 6:44 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Brutalized by the USSR and now by the Russian Fed. A one-two punch in living memory. The Russo-Ukranian border is going to end up being one of the most heavily militarized on the planet for a century.
No. I think it’s about tactics in trench warfare. The Ukrainians are pushing out the Russians bit by bit. But they are still outgunned and cannot afford to sacrifice too many soldiers: https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-sol...07822.html My greatest fear is this: the two greatest Western military powers are now engaged in a long term proxy war. This will deplete both of them of their strength and resources. Places like Saudi Arabia, India and of course China may use the whole situation to grow their economies and finally outgrow both of these powers.
August 18, 2023 at 10:22 am (This post was last modified: August 18, 2023 at 10:24 am by Leonardo17.)
(August 15, 2023 at 10:05 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(August 15, 2023 at 5:33 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: That’s a country that doesn’t exist anymore. And Ukraine was a part of that country that no longer exists. So to me it’s like a Russian Cathedral built in Imperial times. A cultural heritage.
You don't seem to understand that there was -- and is -- a serious racist component to Russia's oppression that doesn't allow forgetfulness. Icons of the oppressor aren't needed. Ten million deaths made the oppression unforgettable.
Just so we're clear what we're talking about, here's some pictures. These are quite disturbing, so those readers at work may wish to leave them spoilered until a better time.
So I think it's pretty facile of you to criticize them for this removal of a Soviet symbol. Maybe the Armenians should still honor the Turks?
That’s a shameful page in our history yes. But look what the Germans are doing. I think denialism does not lead us anywhere. I believe in facing these realities, trying to understand why they happened and raising new generations who will not repeat these mistakes
(By the way is there a “smile” with less teeth in this forum? )
(August 18, 2023 at 10:20 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: My greatest fear is this: the two greatest Western military powers are now engaged in a long term proxy war. This will deplete both of them of their strength and resources. Places like Saudi Arabia, India and of course China may use the whole situation to grow their economies and finally outgrow both of these powers.
India has a nominal GDP of $3.7 trillion compared to Russia's $2 trillion, so they're already there. China passing the US is touch-and-go, their population is actually declining now. They might get over the line and then slip back. Saudi Arabia? When the world moves off oil they'll have to send home the foreign workers they've imported to keep everything running, and then they'll be up Shit Wadi.
(August 15, 2023 at 10:05 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: You don't seem to understand that there was -- and is -- a serious racist component to Russia's oppression that doesn't allow forgetfulness. Icons of the oppressor aren't needed. Ten million deaths made the oppression unforgettable.
Just so we're clear what we're talking about, here's some pictures. These are quite disturbing, so those readers at work may wish to leave them spoilered until a better time.
So I think it's pretty facile of you to criticize them for this removal of a Soviet symbol. Maybe the Armenians should still honor the Turks?
That’s a shameful page in our history yes. But look what the Germans are doing. I think denialism does not lead us anywhere. I believe in facing these realities, trying to understand why they happened and raising new generations who will not repeat these mistakes
(By the way is there a “smile” with less teeth in this forum? )
What we did was shameful but the Germans are worse isn't a good argument or defense.
(August 18, 2023 at 10:22 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: That’s a shameful page in our history yes.
But you didn't answer my question. Do you think Armenians should be forced to honor the Turks who slaughtered them? Because that is exactly what you state the Ukrainians should be doing.
(August 18, 2023 at 10:22 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: But look what the Germans are doing. I think denialism does not lead us anywhere.
The Germans aren't practicing denialism, though. The German government freely acknowledges its Nazi past, indeed educates German students about the guilt Germany carries for the atrocities.
(August 18, 2023 at 10:22 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: I believe in facing these realities, trying to understand why they happened and raising new generations who will not repeat these mistakes
I believe there are much better ways of doing this than retaining statues glorifying the oppressors. You know,, things like class-rooms and museums, books and television programs, and so on.
(August 18, 2023 at 10:22 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: That’s a shameful page in our history yes. But look what the Germans are doing. I think denialism does not lead us anywhere. I believe in facing these realities, trying to understand why they happened and raising new generations who will not repeat these mistakes
(By the way is there a “smile” with less teeth in this forum? )
What we did was shameful but the Germans are worse isn't a good argument or defense.
No, now if you allow me to speak openly;
In France WWI and WWII history is a very important part of the curriculum. They teach students about the movement of collaboration with the Nazi’s during the “Final Solution” as well as the French Resistance for instance. They worguanize trips to concentration camps and induce teenagers to reflect and to debates on some black-white pictures of the holocaust they are seeing. In the 1995 movie “Dangerous Minds” featuring Michelle Pfeifer you can see how the Character of Louanne Johnson (ex-Marine) is taking gang member Kids to talk with Holocaust survivors in order to have a better understanding of their own situation (race problems / Gang problems etc.). I saw video movies (as a 13 year old Kid) of the WWII atrocities, with very graphic pictures and all that (I graduated from a French High school by the way). In Germany they tell kids of similar age group to take a small suitcase and fill them with whatever is most precious to them as if they were going to a concentration camp after being ordered by Nazi’s to do so. They also replaced the name of streets bearing the name of major German Colonialist figures and replaced them with the names of African leaders who resisted to German colonialism. For information purpose: My government has rejected the term “Genocide” in the past. It did agree with the facts of mass-deportation, sometimes mass-murder etc. without agreeing with the term “Genocide”. (I’m talking about real-Turkey before 2001, I don’t know or care about Belisarius’s vision on that). So what I am trying to say is: You become stronger when you talk about slavery, racial discrimination, ecocide or for instance forced assimilation of native population and all these stuff. It’s good to remember these things instead of wrapping them under the carpet and to be able to say “I will do all that is in my power so that this never happens again”. That’s how I see it.
![[Image: GolodomorKharkiv.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/GolodomorKharkiv.jpg)
![[Image: Alexander_Wienerberger_Holodomor18.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Alexander_Wienerberger_Holodomor18.jpg)
![[Image: 1200px-HolodomorUcrania9.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/HolodomorUcrania9.jpg/1200px-HolodomorUcrania9.jpg)
![[Image: massgraves.jpg]](https://orthodoxyindialogue.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/massgraves.jpg)
![[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=cdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0630%2F5310%2F3332%2Fproducts%2FCanada_Flag.jpg%3Fv%3D1646203843)
![[Image: fy4fqfaaqaaixqm.jpeg]](https://badinage1.files.wordpress.com/2023/08/fy4fqfaaqaaixqm.jpeg)
![[Image: 7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/71/51/bc/7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg)
![[Image: MmQV79M.png]](https://i.imgur.com/MmQV79M.png)
