(November 12, 2023 at 11:16 am)Ahriman Wrote: You mean like God?

You're so close, but will you follow through?

(November 12, 2023 at 11:16 am)Ahriman Wrote:

(November 12, 2023 at 11:06 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'm not "worked up". I'm pointing out that human concepts are just as real -- material -- as anything else, so  the conclusion that they don't exist in nature is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not upset. I like accurate language, especially in a format where it is the only means of communicating. I will make it quite clear when I'm pissed; now isn't one of those times.

You mean like God?

The idea of god has a material base in human neurons, sure. That doesn't mean that this conceptualized god is just as real. Try reading for comprehension next time.

(November 12, 2023 at 11:06 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 11, 2023 at 5:11 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Look, no need to get worked up about this. It was a mistake, okay? No need to magnify this at all. Besides, I was just talking about free will, in the wrong way. Seems like I missed something, but as this was said merely in the wrong terms, I do not think this is worth arguing about. I mean, it happens.

I know what I was talking about, I just did not use the right words. I did not mean to say it so that every other concept did not exist.

I'm not "worked up". I'm pointing out that human concepts are just as real -- material -- as anything else, so  the conclusion that they don't exist in nature is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not upset. I like accurate language, especially in a format where it is the only means of communicating. I will make it quite clear when I'm pissed; now isn't one of those times.

I see. It did seem you were kind of worked up, though.

Let me try once more to explain what I actually meant.

Free will is a something (don't quote me on that, I don't know what to actually call it yet) it is part of human reality; reality being used for a lack of a better word. By human reality, I mean the reality as seen by humans, as described by humans and how humans perceive reality, which is different from the reality that governs everything outside of human reality itself, the physical world, that is. Now, both the human reality and the reality outside human reality have their own laws, aspects, and so on in them.

What I think I was trying to say is that free will is part of the human reality, in my eyes, that is. I do not think that free will is something that goes with the reality outside human reality, the rest of the known universe. The reality outside human reality deals with how the mind works, or how it might work, since we don't know about the mind that much.

With that, I don't think the reality outside of human reality would allow for something like free will, or allow it to exist, and even if it did, it would be different from how we perceive free will. I mean, the human reality and the reality outside human reality are two different things here. Human reality is more subjective and the reality outside human reality is more objective, including with things we might not know, at least not yet.

(November 12, 2023 at 11:25 am)ShinyCrystals Wrote:

(November 12, 2023 at 11:06 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I'm not "worked up". I'm pointing out that human concepts are just as real -- material -- as anything else, so  the conclusion that they don't exist in nature is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not upset. I like accurate language, especially in a format where it is the only means of communicating. I will make it quite clear when I'm pissed; now isn't one of those times.

I see. It did seem you were kind of worked up, though.

Let me try once more to explain what I actually meant.

Free will is a something (don't quote me on that, I don't know what to actually call it yet) it is part of human reality; reality being used for a lack of a better word. By human reality, I mean the reality as seen by humans, as described by humans and how humans perceive reality, which is different from the reality that governs everything outside of human reality itself, the physical world, that is. Now, both the human reality and the reality outside human reality have their own laws, aspects, and so on in them.

What I think I was trying to say is that free will is part of the human reality, in my eyes, that is. I do not think that free will is something that goes with the reality outside human reality, the rest of the known universe. The reality outside human reality deals with how the mind works, or how it might work, since we don't know about the mind that much.

With that, I don't think the reality outside of human reality would allow for something like free will, or allow it to exist, and even if it did, it would be different from how we perceive free will. I mean, the human reality and the reality outside human reality are two different things here. Human reality is more subjective and the reality outside human reality is more objective, including with things we might not know, at least not yet.

How do you know that reality outside human reality is "more objective", ... you being a human, (I assume) ? 
First you have to define what you're talking about. Then you have to demonstrate that it's true.

(November 12, 2023 at 12:08 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(November 12, 2023 at 11:25 am)ShinyCrystals Wrote: I see. It did seem you were kind of worked up, though.

Let me try once more to explain what I actually meant.

Free will is a something (don't quote me on that, I don't know what to actually call it yet) it is part of human reality; reality being used for a lack of a better word. By human reality, I mean the reality as seen by humans, as described by humans and how humans perceive reality, which is different from the reality that governs everything outside of human reality itself, the physical world, that is. Now, both the human reality and the reality outside human reality have their own laws, aspects, and so on in them.

What I think I was trying to say is that free will is part of the human reality, in my eyes, that is. I do not think that free will is something that goes with the reality outside human reality, the rest of the known universe. The reality outside human reality deals with how the mind works, or how it might work, since we don't know about the mind that much.

With that, I don't think the reality outside of human reality would allow for something like free will, or allow it to exist, and even if it did, it would be different from how we perceive free will. I mean, the human reality and the reality outside human reality are two different things here. Human reality is more subjective and the reality outside human reality is more objective, including with things we might not know, at least not yet.

How do you know that reality outside human reality is "more objective", ... you being a human, (I assume) ? 
First you have to define what you're talking about. Then you have to demonstrate that it's true.

Yeah, sorry.

I did say "more" objective, though, more meaning not completely because there are things in the human reality that are true. Many things, in fact.

Still, in terms of being more objective, I meant the reality outside of human reality has many things that, in terms of physical things, can't be refuted. Human reality has things that can't be refuted as well, but the actual reality of the reality outside human reality is different from how humans perceive things in the human reality. What might be perceived as true in the human reality, may not be true in the reality outside of human reality, or in the case of free will, may not exist in the reality outside human reality.

Free will does exist as a thing in the human reality. But does it exist in the reality outside that?

People here believe it does not exist, including me, but even with going by based on what I read here, it may be hard to say that free will does not really exist in the reality outside human reality. I am not sure if there is enough proof to debunk free will yet. There may be some evidence, but still...

So I was just stating a belief, therefore. I am saying this in terms of human reality rather than the one outside of it. Despite what may suggest otherwise, I don't think I was trying to pass off my point of view as a fact.

(November 12, 2023 at 12:19 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote:

(November 12, 2023 at 12:08 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: How do you know that reality outside human reality is "more objective", ... you being a human, (I assume) ? 
First you have to define what you're talking about. Then you have to demonstrate that it's true.

Yeah, sorry.

I did say "more" objective, though, more meaning not completely because there are things in the human reality that are true. Many things, in fact.

Still, in terms of being more objective, I meant the reality outside of human reality has many things that, in terms of physical things, can't be refuted. Human reality has things that can't be refuted as well, but the actual reality of the reality outside human reality is different from how humans perceive things in the human reality. What might be perceived as true in the human reality, may not be true in the reality outside of human reality, or in the case of free will, may not exist in the reality outside human reality.

Free will does exist as a thing in the human reality. But does it exist in the reality outside that?

People here believe it does not exist, including me, but even with going by based on what I read here, it may be hard to say that free will does not really exist in the reality outside human reality. I am not sure if there is enough proof to debunk free will yet. There may be some evidence, but still...

So I was just stating a belief, therefore. I am saying this in terms of human reality rather than the one outside of it. Despite what may suggest otherwise, I don't think I was trying to pass off my point of view as a fact.

Can we have 5 examples of each ?

Your central question being whether or how accurately our internal or subjective experiences align to an external or objective reality - yeah, that's a tough one. I don't know that anyone has ever had the answer to that. Adding things like the natural/supernatural dichotomy and god just makes it even more ambiguous and expansive. We can conceive of free wills as natural or supernatural, as existing in a world with gods or as not existing because of a world with gods. Of an objective reality that contains subjectively free or objectively free wills and of an objective world that does not. Of worlds where things believe they have free wills and things do not - and those things don't necessarily have to align to the fact of the matter.

I think that the heightened protectionism around ideas like free will could be (in part) an expression of our sense of tragedy in the lattermost type of world. Where beings that possess agency as a fact genuinely believe they do not.

Free will = Shit happens.

(November 12, 2023 at 12:43 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(November 12, 2023 at 12:19 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Yeah, sorry.

I did say "more" objective, though, more meaning not completely because there are things in the human reality that are true. Many things, in fact.

Still, in terms of being more objective, I meant the reality outside of human reality has many things that, in terms of physical things, can't be refuted. Human reality has things that can't be refuted as well, but the actual reality of the reality outside human reality is different from how humans perceive things in the human reality. What might be perceived as true in the human reality, may not be true in the reality outside of human reality, or in the case of free will, may not exist in the reality outside human reality.

Free will does exist as a thing in the human reality. But does it exist in the reality outside that?

People here believe it does not exist, including me, but even with going by based on what I read here, it may be hard to say that free will does not really exist in the reality outside human reality. I am not sure if there is enough proof to debunk free will yet. There may be some evidence, but still...

So I was just stating a belief, therefore. I am saying this in terms of human reality rather than the one outside of it. Despite what may suggest otherwise, I don't think I was trying to pass off my point of view as a fact.

Can we have 5 examples of each ?

Alright.

For human reality...

Viewing the serious of a situation...
Believing in something that may or may not exist, and if it does, it may exist differently than what people believe (this includes believing in gods)...
Thinking that a turkey should be replaced as Thanksgiving dinner...
Favoring nuts over candy as a snack.
Interpreting something like love as something else than what it is, as viewed generally or by its actual definition.

Those are examples of human reality here, as in what is perceived and what people think of things. Now...

The reality outside human reality...

The planets orbiting the sun, which orbits the center of the milky way.
Apples being red.
Force equals mass times acceleration as determined by physics.
Sound not being something that travels in a vacuum.
A historic event or events like WWII happening the way they did...

Those are on the more factual, indisputable side of things, and in regards to free will, it may not exist as something as determined by the brain and neural system of the human body. My views, again, are on the human reality side, but I do think the brain and neural system of humans are more deterministic, or work in a way that does not allow for free will. I also just think many people, like those who are not scientists, do not seem to know more of how the mind works to determine if free will can actually work the way they believe it does. I am sure that when free will was first thought up by humans, they did not know much about the mind to determine that it does exist.

God much rather have spiritual beings with free will with evil, than beings with no free will and no evil.

His presence is sufficiently revealed so people will know he’s there but sufficiently hidden so that those who wish to ignore him can do so. This way, their choice of destiny* is really a free-will decision. Everyone is currently deciding their choice.
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*Either eternal connection with God, or eternal separation.