(November 29, 2023 at 4:10 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: No, it’s not. I claim that the change in emphasis is important. Before is a better way to say it than regardless. Once we decide whether God exists or not, then the importance of the questions changes depending on how we’ve decided. Please reread what I had afterwards with that in mind. Let me know where it was unclear as an explanation of this point.

If a divine being exists, then the other questions are very important for everyone. If not, then they are only as important as a person wants them to be. If some person doesn’t think they are important, then how would you argue they are?

If a divine being exists then there are questions that may be important -to that divine being-, or -to that divine beings community- - but we all already accept that such subjective and relative importance exists and there doesn't have to be a god for that.  Could be god..or..well..you.  Gods community.,.or yours.  

Now, because I'm an objectivist, when I want to argue with a person over whether or not something is or could be important and how.... I don't launch into a pointless other argument about whether or not some god also exists. I talk about the thing I'm making claims about itself.

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(November 28, 2023 at 5:55 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I protect the weak.  I feed the hungry.  That's what I'm supposed to do.  I was built for it.  I'm unencumbered by guilts and doubts and reservations that prevent other people from doing this.  If not me...then who?

And I thank you for that.

Well I clearly didn't do it for you, you can't think of any reason to do or not do anything except for ghosts.....honestly, most of the people like that were on the other end of my rifle.

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(November 28, 2023 at 5:55 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: ...or else...you see..I would have been someone else, something else, with some different mission or purpose........we would not be talking..about me.

Exactly! And what is the reason you are here and not someone else? You gave a list of events that occurred. Could those events have happened in another way? Did they have to happen just as they did?

There are more reasons that I'm me than I can possibly recall to you.  Many of which happened before I was able to form a memory.  Before...I was born. Sure, I think things could have happened some other way, but not by flipping a coin.  You'd have to go through and change all of those other things, themselves also not the product of a coin flip.

"Chance" is another term doing a lot of work...which, like the last one, won't survive even the the slightest amount of scrutiny. Watch. Do you think -god- flipped a coin to make me the way I am? That, no matter what other circumstances and people and influences were involved..he rolled the people wheel and it came out Joe? If god wanted me to be Not-Joe.....even though I'm from a long Joe tradition..would he have stepped in and un-Joed me?

Hi Boru,

How’s it going today?

(November 28, 2023 at 3:47 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Imagine that you could be convinced, in your heart of hearts, that God didn’t exist. Would you offer food to a starving child? Would you hold a door open for an elderly person? Would you cry at the funeral of a beloved friend?

Virtue is its own reward.

Yes. Yes it is. But that’s only because our culture grew out of Christianity. Yes, Romans and Greeks had virtue, but a lot of the virtues we have they did not.

For example, they might cry at the funeral of a beloved friend. Not sure they would offer food to a starving child. They might even abandon their own child to a van down by the river, :-) if they didn’t want it anymore.

Have you seen anything by Tom Holland? (No, not Peter Parker or Danny Sullivan) The historian. I can’t link to anything yet, but if you search on “Tom Holland Christianity Roman”, then you’ll find some of his publications.

The reason the questions you asked touch us is due to Christianity. Regardless of whether we agree that God exists or not, let’s be true to the social dynamics of history.

p.s. Not saying you wouldn’t be. Just stating the point for the casual reader.

Who's this we shit? I'm a secular atheist in a post-christian america? Christians didn't invent funerals or burials or mourning or charity. That's actually some of the very earliest evidence we have of religiosity in our species, going back tens of thousands of years at least. Maybe the greeks didn't do this part of it or that part of it (they did, all of it, by the way...)..but so what, are any of us pagan greeks?

We don't do that because we're christian or even culturally christian. We've been doing that for longer than christ was a twinkle in a con mans eyes.....christianity just glommed onto it like a parasite? You know, if it's christian authorities™ that you're learning this stuff from, you might want to consider the possibility that they don't respect you in the slightest.

"Charitable giving has been part of human culture for thousands of years. Dating back to 2500 BCE, ancient civilizations launched a tax to help the poor. The word philanthropy, meaning 'love of mankind,' dates back to ancient Greece, where it was considered to be a fundamental component of democracy."

(November 29, 2023 at 4:25 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: Yes. Yes it is. But that’s only because our culture grew out of Christianity.

It's not just because of Christianity. Just look at the Nazis in 1930s Germany, they were all brought up as Christians and yet they adored Hitler and committed some inhumane crimes.

(November 29, 2023 at 4:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Now, because I'm an objectivist,

As in Ayn Rand’s Objectivism?

(November 29, 2023 at 4:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well I clearly didn't do it for you, you can't think of any reason to do or not do anything except for ghosts.....honestly, most of the people like that were on the other end of my rifle.

I’m approaching these discussions the way Chase Rice does. Just people sitting around, drinking beer, and talking about interesting questions. I’m thinking you are not. Or maybe your style just comes across that way. I have pretty thick skin so that’s fine. But if the conversation is getting you angry, or even annoyed, I can move on to something else.

No, not ayn rands objectivism. Moral objectivism. The notion that moral statements purport to report facts and insomuch as they accurately report those facts they should be treated like any other statement that purports to report a fact and accurately reports it. The way I use moral statements or language, "the sun came up" and "it's bad to curbstomp infants" are true in exactly the same way and should be treated as such. So you can see how the other question "but what if there's a/no god" is just nonoperative.

I'm also..generally, drinking beer, and a fair amount of my style is just that, just the way I learned to speak around the people I've spent most my life with. It's when I'm super nice and polite that I've got -really- shitty things in mind. For me, "Fuck you guy!" is a tender greeting to a friend you haven't seen in awhile. We might shake hands I might grab his dick, you never know, but whatever happens it will happen with love.

(November 29, 2023 at 4:44 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(November 29, 2023 at 4:25 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: Yes. Yes it is. But that’s only because our culture grew out of Christianity.

It's not just because of Christianity. Just look at the Nazis in 1930s Germany, they were all brought up as Christians and yet they adored Hitler and committed some inhumane crimes.

And it’s because we were in a Christian culture that those crimes are inhumane. What Romans did to people they conquered was in the same direction, even if they weren’t as extensive.

Look, I get it that no one (or hardly anyone) is going to look up the articles and read the arguments made. That’s fine. I’m just offering it to those interested in honest discussion.

If someone does want to read his works and discuss the points made, then I’m open to that.

(November 29, 2023 at 4:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: No, not ayn rands objectivism.  Moral objectivism.  The notion that moral statements purport to report facts and insomuch as they accurately report those facts they should be treated like any other statement that purports to report a fact and accurately reports it.  The way I sue moral statements, "the sun came up" and "it's bad to curbstomp infants" are true in exactly the same way and should be treated as such.  

I'm also..generally, drinking beer, and a fair amount of my style is just that, just the way I learned to speak around the people I've spent most my life with.  It's when I'm super nice and polite that I've got -really- shitty things in mind.  For me, "Fuck you guy!" is a tender greeting to a friend you haven't seen in awhile.

Fair enough. Thank you for the explanation. I have to go. I’ll follow up on the other statements later. I think our discussion on purpose, chance, etc. is very interesting.

(November 29, 2023 at 5:02 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: And it’s because we were in a Christian culture that those crimes are inhumane.

Nope.

(November 29, 2023 at 5:02 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: What Romans did to people they conquered was in the same direction, even if they weren’t as extensive.

When Christians came to power the world did not become suddenly more moral. There was still slavery, child abandonment, and wars. In fact, for Christianity to become the main religion in Rome, other religions were persecuted with capital punishment.