(November 30, 2023 at 11:53 am)Ahriman Wrote: What does Shiva do for the world?

It would be foolish to assume that you could find india on a map, wouldn't it.  I don't disagree with theists that their constructs exist in the world, I disagree about the nature of their existence and the effects of those constructs.

For example....I believe that theism has distorted our views of importance and objectivity leading to questions like the OPQ and pretty much every one that's followed in thread, which aren't -just- things that nuts come here to say, but foundational and consequential errors that inexorably lead to poor outcomes and understandings.

(November 30, 2023 at 5:53 am)Ahriman Wrote:

(November 29, 2023 at 11:00 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: That's what I thought. Another hypocrite.
We have a group of friends in San Diego, most are atheists, who join the great people at St. Pauls (Cathedral) 
about twice a week, and do "loaves and fishes". 
Before you start preaching about homelessness, you should get off your ass, and help get feeding them done.

To be fair, giving a homeless dude some pizza is more than what most people do in their entire lives. And I'm not convinced that "loaves and fishes" thing isn't being done more out of a sense of obligation than genuine empathy. I'm always suspicious when people give too much.

I know dear, feeding someone who has nothing a meal is "too much" for you.

(November 30, 2023 at 12:01 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(November 30, 2023 at 11:58 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm absolutely certain that you are - and this is an answer to to question.  It's an issue of smarts (and you may have the relationship inverted).  Objective. 

If you knew more, or if I knew more, maybe we would be able to follow or agree.

Maybe we need to communicate differently.

Please define the following terms (how you are using them here):

Important
Objective
Objectivist
Exist

Quote:Do you not follow because yuck? Non cog.
Do you not follow because you and I have not read the same source materials? Subjective.
Do you not follow because you and I were indoctrinated into disparate cultural or ideological frameworks? Relative.
Do you not follow because you or I have some fact of the matter wrong? Objective.

 Any of these categories can have importance assigned.  Any of these categories can have existence assigned.  

I acknowledge that people really do feel alot of ways about alot of things (and I mean here, explicitly aside from any facts or truth-apt propositions supporting those feelings) and that this is important.  I acknowledge that people really are different and that this is important.  I acknowledge that we live in societies which do not agree and that this is important.  I acknowledge that there are facts of matters and that these are important.

This is how I use these terms, I'm not totally wedded to it. I can use any set of words and even non-words to describe the content.

See, that's what I mean by communication issues. I required an actual definition for each term, and without it I just don't understand you.

You might find my definitions even less apt than my elaborative descriptions.

Non cognitivism is the idea that statements purport to report facts, but do not report facts, they report feelings.

Subjectivism is the notion that statements purport to report facts, but misreport those facts, instead reporting a fact about the individual subject themselves.

Relativism is the notion that statements purport to report facts, but misreport those facts, instead reporting a fact about the society or group the individual subject arises from.

Objectivism is the notion that statements purport to report facts and either succeed or fail to report those facts.

Importance is the state or fact of being of great significance or value..which, I think, we can extend to any of these categories.

To exist is to be, and I think we can assign existence to each one of these categories, and to importance within and between each of these categories.

An objectivist is a person who acknowledges and/or assigns importance to the set of objective statements. Rightly or wrongly.

(November 30, 2023 at 12:13 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(November 30, 2023 at 5:53 am)Ahriman Wrote: To be fair, giving a homeless dude some pizza is more than what most people do in their entire lives. And I'm not convinced that "loaves and fishes" thing isn't being done more out of a sense of obligation than genuine empathy. I'm always suspicious when people give too much.

I know dear, feeding someone who has nothing a meal is "too much" for you.

Lol dude, look at what you're doing, you're just trying to shame me for not wanting to feed homeless people, why do I have to do that anyway? I don't feel obligated to do so, it's not my prerogative.

(November 30, 2023 at 12:38 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You might find my definitions even less apt than my elaborative descriptions.

Non cognitivism is the idea that statements purport to report facts, but do not report facts, they report feelings.

Subjectivism is the notion that statements purport to report facts, but misreport those facts, instead reporting a fact about the individual subject themselves.

Relativism is the notion that statements purport to report facts, but misreport those facts, instead reporting a fact about the society or group the individual subject arises from.

Objectivism is the notion that statements purport to report facts and either succeed or fail to report those facts.  

Importance is the state or fact of being of great significance or value..which, I think, we can extend to any of these categories.  

To exist is to be, and I think we can assign existence to each one of these categories, and to importance within each of these categories.  

An objectivist is a person who acknowledges and/or assigns importance to the set of objective statements.

When you say statements, do you mean every statement?
Also, what do you mean by objective?

Sure, any statement - obviously the thread is mostly about statements of value. What is important, how it's important, who it's important to, what it's important for.

I literally just told you what I mean by objective, after you asked me what I meant by objective...after I'd already told you what I meant by objective. Look, you don't have to agree ...and I do keep saying "rightly or wrongly"..... but it's ridiculous to pretend the question hasn't been answered, and answered at length, as to what I mean. I'm a talkative bitch.

(November 30, 2023 at 11:03 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(November 30, 2023 at 10:28 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It is implicit in the words you wrote which I quoted.

I think you've read something that isn't there. 

I'm apparently not the only one having trouble understanding what you write.

(November 30, 2023 at 11:03 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: I'm not sure what something being objectively important would even mean.  What do you think it means?

I think it means a divide-by-zero error.

(November 30, 2023 at 12:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Sure, any statement - obviously the thread is mostly about statements of value.  What is important, how it's important, who it's important to, what it's important for.

I literally just told you what I mean by objective, after you asked me what I meant by objective...after I'd already told you what I meant by objective.  Look, you don't have to agree ...and I do keep saying "rightly or wrongly"..... but it's ridiculous to pretend the question hasn't been answered, and answered at length, as to what I mean.  I'm a talkative bitch.

I'm slow.
Please define what you mean by objective.