Oookay, and which of the at least five basic ideas about importance (or moral importance) so far discussed in thread, all open to believers and non believers alike.. are in the childish set, so we can discard them?

The one that says that we should x because love? The one that says we should x because someone said so? The one that says we should x because lots of people say so, the one that says we should x because of facts about x - or the one that says the whole thing is an error of some kind or another?

(personally, I'd discard the first three, not because there's nothing there, just because it's never what I'm trying to talk about when I use the terms).

(November 30, 2023 at 8:06 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Oookay, and which of the at least five basic ideas about importance (or moral importance) so far discussed in thread, all open to believers and non believers alike.. are in the childish set, so we can discard them?

The one that says that we should x because love? The one that says we should x because someone said so? The one that says we should x because lots of people say so, the one that says we should x because of facts about x - or the one that says the whole thing is an error of some kind or another?

(personally, I'd discard the first three, not because there's nothing there, just because it's never what I'm trying to talk about when I use the terms).

Let’s assume when we say god - we mean a perfect being.

It’s not a great argument to redraw god as a devil type being and attack that.

I’ll assume - if you’re describing something that sounds more like a devil, you’re really talking about a devil and calling it god

(November 30, 2023 at 7:42 pm)Ravenshire Wrote: Questions about gawd are, until and unless the posited gawd is supported by evidence, totally irrelevant.

And I decline to do so.

(November 30, 2023 at 7:35 pm)brewer Wrote: Sounds to me that you're not really confused (user name), I think that you believe. It's more like you can't actually explain/justify to non believers.

That's OK, believe what ever you want if it gets you thru your day.

I want truth.

So I put my cards on the table to see if I can expand my worldview, “bump my corners off”. Refine my understanding.

And yes - some of Christianity confuses me - atheists and I share similar confusion - like sacrifice for sin ???

(November 30, 2023 at 8:14 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote:

(November 30, 2023 at 8:06 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Oookay, and which of the at least five basic ideas about importance (or moral importance) so far discussed in thread, all open to believers and non believers alike.. are in the childish set, so we can discard them?

The one that says that we should x because love?  The one that says we should x because someone said so?  The one that says we should x because lots of people say so, the one that says we should x because of facts about x - or the one that says the whole thing is an error of some kind or another?

(personally, I'd discard the first three, not because there's nothing there, just because it's never what I'm trying to talk about when I use the terms).

Let’s assume when we say god - we mean a perfect being.

It’s not a great argument to redraw god as a devil type being and attack that.  

I’ll assume - if you’re describing something that sounds more like a devil, you’re really talking about a devil and calling it god

Not exactly what I was asking, but sure, I'll bite.  

First, you must appreciate that whatever it is you're objecting to with the devil stuff really only means what it does to you.  I'm not turning a god to anything, not redrawing anything.  I don't believe in any of this stuff the way that you do.  I'm simply commenting on the idea that things are worthwhile because they come from gods wherever..instead of coming from gods wherever because they are worthwhile.  

More succinctly, that coming out of gods wherever is the worthwhile-making property in this understanding.  If that were so, then it would follow inexorably that those "devil things" would be the set of the worthwhile, if that's what happened to be coming out of gods wherever.

I'm not sure what the problem could be. If god was the perfect being, and coming out of his wherever was the worthwhile making property, all of those things would be not just worthwhile but perfect...too.

(November 30, 2023 at 6:52 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Ideals trapped in a universe that has no real meaningful expression.  You do good stuff, and then it's over.  the deed dies out and eventually float off into nothingness and the universe dies with all your actions and everything you do.

Why bother?  (I hate to say the above paragraph, and it's not what i think really happens.  I thing your goodness lives on and is recorded.  it transforms into something meaningful - and never dies)


I think god has attributes that are worthy - like goodness, love, truth, beauty, personality, courage.  They shine out of god.


Not out of proportion.
Its a poor reason to do good things.  "Why do you love me?".  "Because i'm afraid of what you'll do if i don't love you".
fear needs to be kept in it's place - keeping you alive in the biological sense.  it has no business in the spiritual matters though.


Happy funland is a giant family, we are all family, brothers and sisters with god as our father.  greater and greater challenges and growth, helping eachother find the father.

I think god has attributes that are worthy - like goodness, love, truth, beauty, personality, courage.  They shine out of god.

Is this the same god that drowned everything on earth?

Is this the same god that raped a young virgin to give birth to himself/son?

Is this the same god that created everything just to kill his son?


Just making sure

(November 30, 2023 at 8:26 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(November 30, 2023 at 8:14 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Let’s assume when we say god - we mean a perfect being.

It’s not a great argument to redraw god as a devil type being and attack that.  

I’ll assume - if you’re describing something that sounds more like a devil, you’re really talking about a devil and calling it god

Not exactly what I was asking, but sure, I'll bite.  

First, you must appreciate that whatever it is you're objecting to with the devil stuff really only means what it does to you.  I'm not turning a god to anything, not redrawing anything.  I don't believe in any of this stuff the way that you do.  I'm simply commenting on the idea that things are worthwhile because they come from gods wherever..instead of coming from gods wherever because they are worthwhile.  

More succinctly, that coming out of gods whatever is the worthwhile-making property in this understanding.  If that were so, then it would follow inexorably that those "devil things" would be the set of the worthwhile, if that's what happened to be coming out of gods wherever.

I'm not sure what the problem could be. If god was the perfect being, and coming out of his whatever was the worthwhile making property, all of those things would be not just worthwhile but perfect...too.

You’re basically making god not fully harmonised and unified with godself in order to emanate bad stuff from him. ??? You have to corrupt his integrity (no more truth, goodness beauty)

(November 30, 2023 at 8:31 pm)h4ym4n Wrote:

(November 30, 2023 at 6:52 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Ideals trapped in a universe that has no real meaningful expression.  You do good stuff, and then it's over.  the deed dies out and eventually float off into nothingness and the universe dies with all your actions and everything you do.

Why bother?  (I hate to say the above paragraph, and it's not what i think really happens.  I thing your goodness lives on and is recorded.  it transforms into something meaningful - and never dies)


I think god has attributes that are worthy - like goodness, love, truth, beauty, personality, courage.  They shine out of god.


Not out of proportion.
Its a poor reason to do good things.  "Why do you love me?".  "Because i'm afraid of what you'll do if i don't love you".
fear needs to be kept in it's place - keeping you alive in the biological sense.  it has no business in the spiritual matters though.


Happy funland is a giant family, we are all family, brothers and sisters with god as our father.  greater and greater challenges and growth, helping eachother find the father.

I think god has attributes that are worthy - like goodness, love, truth, beauty, personality, courage.  They shine out of god.

Is this the same god that drowned everything on earth?

Is this the same god that raped a young virgin to give birth to himself/son?

Is this the same god that created everything just to kill his son?


Just making sure

You’re talking about religion here

(November 30, 2023 at 8:33 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: You’re basically making god not fully harmonised and unified with godself in order to emanate bad stuff from him.  ???  You have to corrupt his integrity (no more truth, goodness beauty)

I'm not doing anything, this was your suggestion?  You're the one who indicated that flowing out of gods wherever was the worthwhile making property - I don't believe in gods at all. The stuff you seem to think is devil stuff would be the worthwhile stuff, and perfect, according to your understanding of how things are worthwhile, or perfect.

See, this is why I like to use pizza and cats.

(November 28, 2023 at 7:23 pm)Astreja Wrote: Our perception that they are important, and our decision to treat them as if they're important.

(November 30, 2023 at 6:25 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: I think so too.  they are about as important as we make them (if there is no god).

It doesn't matter whether there are gods or not. My values are unlikely to align 100% with any other sentient being, and extremely unlikely to align with the values of the Christian god - there are elements of Christianity, for instance, that I think are utterly ghastly from a morality POV.

In other words, no one else gets to override my idea of what I think is important. They can disagree with me, of course, but disagreement doesn't make them right and me wrong.