(December 1, 2023 at 10:57 am)Confused-by-christianity Wrote:

(December 1, 2023 at 10:44 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Thanks for not arguing my point ... not that you'd be able to anyway.

Yeah - it's getting a little excitable in here !!!

(December 1, 2023 at 1:40 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(December 1, 2023 at 11:06 am)Ahriman Wrote: Nudger, do you think God is a liar? Would God lie?

Very early in Genesis, God told Adam that he would die the day he ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge, in the story Adam lives to be hundreds of years old. The god who told Adam he would die if he ate the fruit lied. The serpent, on the other hand, seems to have been entirely truthful.

That would be the simpleton's take on things.

(December 1, 2023 at 11:08 am)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: grand thinks im stupid (possibly sociopathic)    ;-)  haha  ;-)  jk

someone elses thinks im an an idiotic coward.

And yet here I've been civil with you and you still won't answer my point.

(December 1, 2023 at 2:37 pm)Ahriman Wrote: That would be the simpleton's take on things.

Tell us what you know about being a simpleton. I'm interested in learning this.

Hi Grand Nudger,

Sorry for the delay. Things have been busy. Still are.

(November 30, 2023 at 2:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Good god, it's a wave of specific incompetence!  Probably random chance or completely noncognitive.  

I know! And the whole notifications, thing. Dogs and cats living together. Yikes!

(November 30, 2023 at 2:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Yes, ofc I was speaking to you - and I can loop you right in.  What if..like Boru, I played along with this notion that my values come from christianity, as a post christian pagan-leaning anti-theist..and say that they're just christianity+?  Like, yeah, all of these supersititions and gods are garbage and you shouldn't worship them or miseducated children into thinking that the reason not to stab little johhny from the next row is that those silly non-gods are watching...and I say, "...plus the christian one".  Who has more of whatever in this instance, and what word would you like to use to refer to whatever that more is?

I’m going to skip this scenario, even though you grant me the gift of picking the word to use to refer to “whatever”. Thank you. I would have picked “spatula.” Spatula is a good word. :-)

Previously, you said this, which I think captures the source of confusion well.

(November 29, 2023 at 5:09 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Let's try a thought experiment.  If you went to your church or temple or fellowship or whatever, and told the folks there that...if god weren't real... there'd be no reason you could think of not to eat their kids....what do you think would happen?

Of course, I could think of a lot of reasons that people wouldn’t eat their kids. They’ve been avoiding that for millennium. Similar for stabbing little johnny, whether we eat him afterwards or not. But that’s not the point that it seems like, as you describe it, theists are trying to make. And their point is not my point, when I referred to Holland’s book. And that isn’t even the main point of the thread!
(NB: I love these kinds of discussions, but they do bring up many, many branches. I will try to prune the variants. Avoiding the many branches just from this, I will make one post on this topic and then try to go back to somewhere on the original thread. I do not have much of a life, but the natural lack of focus in these threads is more than even a simple caveman wants to handle)

Holland’s point is that a rigorous review of Roman and Greek cultures makes it clear that most people would find their mores to be alien. This is because western culture (as well as many cultures they indoctrinated) was steeped in Christianity for, let’s say, 1300 years. Even 50 years ago, most people would gladly, fully, identify as Christian of some sort. You can’t come out of something like that without being heavily influenced by it. To use an analogy you may enjoy, If you plant crops on the site of a nuclear explosion, the corn’s going to be radioactive.

Now, back to the main thread (probably tomorrow).

Pax et bonum

(December 1, 2023 at 2:47 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(December 1, 2023 at 2:37 pm)Ahriman Wrote: That would be the simpleton's take on things.

Tell us what you know about being a simpleton. I'm interested in learning this.

I don't know anything about it.

(December 1, 2023 at 2:51 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote:

(November 29, 2023 at 5:09 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Let's try a thought experiment.  If you went to your church or temple or fellowship or whatever, and told the folks there that...if god weren't real... there'd be no reason you could think of not to eat their kids....what do you think would happen?

Of course, I could think of a lot of reasons that people wouldn’t eat their kids. They’ve been avoiding that for millennium. Similar for stabbing little johnny, whether we eat him afterwards or not. But that’s not the point that it seems like, as you describe it, theists are trying to make. And their point is not my point, when I referred to Holland’s book. And that isn’t even the main point of the thread!
(NB: I love these kinds of discussions, but they do bring up many, many branches. I will try to prune the variants. Avoiding the many branches just from this, I will make one post on this topic and then try to go back to somewhere on the original thread. I do not have much of a life, but the natural lack of focus in these threads is more than even a simple caveman wants to handle)

Holland’s point is that a rigorous review of Roman and Greek cultures makes it clear that most people would find their mores to be alien. This is because western culture (as well as many cultures they indoctrinated) was steeped in Christianity for, let’s say, 1300 years. Even 50 years ago, most people would gladly, fully, identify as Christian of some sort. You can’t come out of something like that without being heavily influenced by it. To use an analogy you may enjoy, If you plant crops on the site of a nuclear explosion, the corn’s going to be radioactive.

Now, back to the main thread (probably tomorrow).

Pax et bonum

I did enjoy that one, and that's exactly what I think happened with christianity in the west.  What explains it's current death spiral.  Christian mores being both radioactive, and as alien to people, generally speaking..under 50...as greek ones are to you and I both.  It's almost like something has been happening these passed few decades to make people who might have happily identified as christian once put as much distance between themselves and the brand as possible.  Even the remaining "christians" are more pagan than christian, according to their own religious authorities and...amazingly, even their own self stated beliefs.

I have obviously been heavily influenced by christianity, but not because my beliefs about meaning or what matters or what is important or the nature of moral statements comes from christianity. I've been strongly influenced by christianity to become an anti-theist. Christianity rejects meaning. Rejects what matters. It utterly fails at moral instruction. To a great extent, this is a quality it shares with every other belief in personal and intervening gods.

(December 1, 2023 at 2:47 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(December 1, 2023 at 2:37 pm)Ahriman Wrote: That would be the simpleton's take on things.

Tell us what you know about being a simpleton. I'm interested in learning this.

@Ahriman calling others a simpleton?!?

If AF were a village, they would be it's idiot.

(December 1, 2023 at 3:46 pm)Ravenshire Wrote:

(December 1, 2023 at 2:47 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Tell us what you know about being a simpleton. I'm interested in learning this.

@Ahriman calling others a simpleton?!?

If AF were a village, they would be it's idiot.

It is idiot?

Hi, Catherine.