(June 11, 2024 at 12:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Prophecies are fulfilled at exactly the same rate at coincidence, and for exactly the same reasons.

Boru

I disagree, but how does one prove that?

Surely the burden would be to prove that it's otherwise. In modern times you could track every prophesy someone makes to get their hit or miss ration and someone who makes a number of prophecies about things that they couldn't reasonably predict who gets them 100% right would stand out as less likely to be completely coincidental.

All that preaching from the Q-guy. 

(June 11, 2024 at 11:31 am)Questor Wrote: And if you think what happens to Israel doesn't matter, or that prophecy is irrelelvant, why do much of the world's population hate Jews with a passion greater than they have for life? After all, there are currently only about 14 million of us worldwide, and yet, we are the world's essential enemy . . . and have been since about 1400 BC.

The early church was at pains to make the Jews responsible for the death of Jesus and pretty much absolved the Romans who actually did it, if the stories are true. That began a cycle of Christians using Jews as a scapegoat. In addition the diaspora let do Jews being a widely dispersed group without a homeland that remained tight knit. Often restricted in the occupations they could follow, and benefitting from a high level of trust between each other, they naturally fell into trades such as lending at interest and commerce in high value goods. They became an ethnicity of middle men.

Jews are not the only ones to find themselves in such a position. Arab Muslims and expat Chinese were also not very popular and all three have suffered being run out of countries who thought their services were unneccessary or that anyone could do them as well. That usually wasn't a winning move for their economies, which made those countries even more miffed. In most cases in Europe, the Jews were there first and longest, and there was always the 'killing' Jesus thing.

Then they went and reformed Israel, a move not well received in the region; though it was as much the colonial powers just handing it to them as anything the Jews did.

Alternatively, the almighty creator of the universe likes to do hard by them.

(June 11, 2024 at 12:51 pm)Fireball Wrote: All that preaching from the Q-guy. 

Alas, answering a serious question requires a serious answer, and when asked for hard proof, I gave it.

I note you do not dispute what I said, only complain that I said it.

(June 11, 2024 at 12:38 pm)Questor Wrote:

(June 11, 2024 at 12:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Prophecies are fulfilled at exactly the same rate at coincidence, and for exactly the same reasons.

Boru

I disagree, but how does one prove that?

By looking the total number of prophecies. The unfulfilled and outright failed prophecies far outweigh the number of fulfilled prophecies. Yahweh has a similar record to a racetrack tout.

Boru

Funny thing about prophecy. The probability of it being fulfilled goes way up when people consciously intend to bring about its fulfillment. I wonder why?

(June 11, 2024 at 1:05 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 11, 2024 at 11:31 am)Questor Wrote: And if you think what happens to Israel doesn't matter, or that prophecy is irrelelvant, why do much of the world's population hate Jews with a passion greater than they have for life? After all, there are currently only about 14 million of us worldwide, and yet, we are the world's essential enemy . . . and have been since about 1400 BC.

The early church was at pains to make the Jews responsible for the death of Jesus and pretty much absolved the Romans who actually did it, if the stories are true. That began a cycle of Christians using Jews as a scapegoat. In addition the diaspora let do Jews being a widely dispersed group without a homeland that remained tight knit. Often restricted in the occupations they could follow, and benefitting from a high level of trust between each other, they naturally fell into trades such as lending at interest and commerce in high value goods. They became an ethnicity of middle men.

Jews are not the only ones to find themselves in such a position. Arab Muslims and expat Chinese were also not very popular and all three have suffered being run out of countries who thought their services were unneccessary or that anyone could do them as well. That usually wasn't a winning move for their economies, which made those countries even more miffed. In most cases in Europe, the Jews were there first and longest, and there was always the 'killing' Jesus thing.

Then they went and reformed Israel, a move not well received in the region; though it was as much the colonial powers just handing it to them as anything the Jews did.

Alternatively, the almighty creator of the universe likes to do hard by them.

Since YHWH does not, as a rule, simply pluck up a people group via angel-power, and place them where he wishes them to be, humans are encouraged, and even led to make things happen. 

The fact that the series of events leading up to Israel reestablishing themselves in their homeland was done by men is to be expected, but that the Jews did return to their homeland despite the world being passionately against the idea is notable, and that they continue to survive is astonishing.

As for YHWH punishing the Israelites throughout time, it was always deserved, and thus the Israelites dispersed as was promised under the Mosaic Covenant. It does not negate the reality that Israel was re-established as prophesied, but rather set up the need for it.

So, your stance is that the Israelites deserve(d) to be punished? Seems to be a hateful remark.

(June 11, 2024 at 1:40 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Funny thing about prophecy.  The probability of it being fulfilled goes way up when people consciously intend to bring about its fulfillment.  I wonder why?

Yes, prophecy fulfillment should be easy if one has a simple prognostication, and a united group to fulfill the terms stated, with complete control of the events on the ground.  

However, when the prophecies are made over some twenty-five hundred years apart from the fulfillment, and take decades and a mass of people doing just the right thing at the right time even in opposition to it, and with all involved unable to discern when fulfillment is actually possible, or what geopolitical acts might be necessary to create the climate for fulfillment, such prophecy fulfillment argues a level of control outside human hands.