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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 1:03 am
Quote:The great majority of the Arab masses,
That really is the problem though, isn't it. They may THINK that the mullahs are full of shit but until they are willing to SAY that the mullahs are full of shit all they really do is enable the nutjobs.
I understand their reluctance. Speaking out against the mullahs is to risk one's life in many places.
But still, overthrowing a dictator who enjoyed bourbon to put in place a religious fuckhead who thinks all that is needed is for women to wear bee-keeper suits does not seem like much of an improvement to me.
So far, it seems they are voting for the bee-keeper suits.
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 1:14 am
(This post was last modified: December 27, 2011 at 2:25 am by Rokcet Scientist.)
(December 27, 2011 at 1:03 am)Minimalist Wrote: But still, overthrowing a dictator who enjoyed bourbon to put in place a religious fuckhead who thinks all that is needed is for women to wear bee-keeper suits does not seem like much of an improvement to me.
So far, it seems they are voting for the bee-keeper suits.
If that is determined in a fair democratic process, with freedom of speech, thought, press (media) and of political or religious affiliation, then I have no quarrel with it. I may think it's stupid, but it is what they voluntarily want themselves, for themselves, arrived at without outside pressure or coercion, that's important. Not what you or I want.
Once they have the freedom of choice, religion will wane. Like it did and does in the west. I'm sure you will agree an enlightenment movement in Islam, like the Xtian reformation, will be an improvement. Even if it's not total abolition as you really want. It's better than nothing. And our only sliver of hope, however dim, wishful, and projecting, of eventually realising true abolition of organised religion, if ever.
Though definitely not in this millennium IYAM.
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 10:01 am
You have no problem with the oppression of women as long as people vote for it? Are you sure about that?
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 10:13 am
(This post was last modified: December 27, 2011 at 10:20 am by Rokcet Scientist.)
(December 27, 2011 at 10:01 am)ElDinero Wrote: You have no problem with the oppression of women as long as people vote for it? Are you sure about that?
Apparently you missed condition #1: a fair democratic process.
In a fair democratic process women can also vote. Equal to men. If they can I'll bet the large majority won't vote for oppression of women... What do you think? 
But on the off chance they should anyway, then that's apparently what they want. You and I may consider them stupid, but if that is their free choice, then that is their free choice. And none of our business.
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 10:17 am
Tradition and cultural indoctrination are powerful. It's not beyond possibility that a woman would vote in oppressive measures counter to her own interests. We actually have quite the history of doing just that, men and women both.
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 10:21 am
(December 27, 2011 at 10:13 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: (December 27, 2011 at 10:01 am)ElDinero Wrote: You have no problem with the oppression of women as long as people vote for it? Are you sure about that?
Apparently you missed condition #1: a fair democratic process.
In a fair democratic process women can also vote. Equal to men. If they can I'll bet the large majority won't vote for oppression of women... What do you think?
But on the off chance they should anyway, then that's apparently what they want. You and I may consider them stupid, but if that is their free choice, then that is their free choice.
It’s bullshit. It’s also one reason we have courts in the US. Part of their job is to protect the minority from the will of the majority.
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 10:27 am
(This post was last modified: December 27, 2011 at 10:53 am by Rokcet Scientist.)
(December 27, 2011 at 10:17 am)Rhythm Wrote: Tradition and cultural indoctrination are powerful. It's not beyond possibility that a woman would vote in oppressive measures counter to her own interests. We actually have quite the history of doing just that, men and women both.
Of course. But eventually that is solved too. Societies need to learn how to handle democracy and freedom of choice if they are not used to it. That takes time. Example: in my 'democratic' country women got the vote almost a century after men did. I'll bet it wasn't much different in your 'democratic' country.
However, I concede that some countries – even those that consider themselves democracy standard bearers – take an awful lot of time to learn. One wonders sometime if they ever will.
(December 27, 2011 at 10:21 am)popeyespappy Wrote: It’s bullshit. It’s also one reason we have courts in the US. Part of their job is to protect the minority from the will of the majority.
Which demonstrates the US' democracy's immaturity: protecting minorities from majorities is a political thing, not a legal thing. So it's the political system that should deal with that. Not the legal system.
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Quote:I'm sure you will agree an enlightenment movement in Islam, like the Xtian reformation, will be an improvement
Of course - hell, they wouldn't even need an "enlightenment movement" although I dispute that the Reformation was anything of the kind. The reformation was once bunch of fuckheads trying to break loose of another bunch of fuckheads.
All the muslims need is to stop being a bunch of barbarians but I must tell you that it looks to me as if they are going in the other direction.
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 12:25 pm
(December 27, 2011 at 10:13 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: Apparently you missed condition #1: a fair democratic process.
In a fair democratic process women can also vote. Equal to men. If they can I'll bet the large majority won't vote for oppression of women... What do you think?
But on the off chance they should anyway, then that's apparently what they want. You and I may consider them stupid, but if that is their free choice, then that is their free choice. And none of our business.
But they don't have those liberties you said about. You said you don't have a problem with what Min was talking about as long as it's done within all these parameters. But they are not in place, so where does that leave your argument?
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RE: If Genesis is BS, what DID happen?
December 27, 2011 at 1:36 pm
(December 27, 2011 at 10:27 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: (December 27, 2011 at 10:21 am)popeyespappy Wrote: It’s bullshit. It’s also one reason we have courts in the US. Part of their job is to protect the minority from the will of the majority.
Which demonstrates the US' democracy's immaturity: protecting minorities from majorities is a political thing, not a legal thing. So it's the political system that should deal with that. Not the legal system.
That’s where you are wrong. The Constitution of the US set up a system of checks and balances. It is the judiciary’s function to keep the legislative branch in check by assuring they pass no laws contrary to the Constitution and to ensure the laws that get passed are applied equally to all citizens. Without an independent judiciary with the power to keep the executive and legislative branches in check we might as well be living in an autocracy.
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