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(July 16, 2024 at 6:29 am)soulcalm17 Wrote: God wants people to being true happy in their life, so that He gave us the revelation that's including story in it.

He cares about humans?

Quote:The writing/speech style

I think you are talking about textual analysis. This is something that was used to figure out if different people wrote the Bible and how many people. It isn’t something that I am familiar with.
Mormons have recently invested a lot into this. There are researchers at Brigham Young University who work on this sort of thing. When I say recently, I mean around 2010 and to this date.
I imagine all the experts have concluded that Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon. By experts, I mean that they have a diploma and they are also mormons.

Quote:Qur’an’s quote:
…Who does more wrong than those who fabricate lies against Allah to mislead others without any knowledge? Surely Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (Al An’am 6:144)
Hadith’s quote:
…Whoever lies in my name deliberately, let his seat be prepared in hell… (Musnad Ahmad: 11711)

I’m not seeing anything special in those lines.
Which one of those is said by the jewish god and how do you know?

Quote:From the example, we know that the Quran style is more complex, like a poem, but with deep meaning, than one in the hadith.

Your claim seems to be that humans are incapable of this: writing a poem, giving a meaning to text.
Yes, it is possible for a human to write 2 pieces of text: one piece contains a poem and the other does not.
This isn’t something that is out of the bounds of possibility.

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About that Surah At Tawba 9:43 comment:
I took a look starting at 9:1 to see what it is about.

Summary:
The muslims have entered into a treaty with the polytheists. From the tone of the text, I figure that the jewish god doesn’t approve.
The jewish god makes a threat to the polytheists. (And give good news ˹O Prophet˺ to the disbelievers of a painful punishment.)
The polytheists who have honored the treaty, honor the treaty with them.
Kill the polytheists who have not honored the treaty after the sacred months have past.
If they apologize and pay money, set them free.
If a polytheist asks for protection, give him protection and try to convert him to Islam.
9:8 Demonstrates paranoia. It states that if the polytheists army was superior, they would do damages to you. They are not good people.
There is some repetition.
The text encourages the muslim to fight the polytheists if they don’t honor the treaty. The text guarantees victory for the muslim.
9:16 It is some more encouragement to the muslims.
9:17 Fuck the Polytheists.
You have to maintain the church, you have to believe in the last day, you have to pray, you have to give money to the Islam organized religion, you have to only fear the jewish god.
With the jewish god, you get great stuff.
The jewish god has to be the most important thing to you. Money, family, friends, possessions should be secondary to you. This is a rule. if you don’t obey it, I will put you in hell.
9:25 There was a war. There were many muslims but they began to lose the war. The jewish god sent invisible people to fight and the muslim side won. Fuck the Polytheists.
9:28 Fuck the Polytheists. Don’t let them get close to my church.
9:29 Fight the polytheists, kill them, until they pay a tax.
Jews and Christians are worshiping false gods. Unbelievers have taken control of those religion. Those religions are crap.
There is some threat to rabbis and monks.
There is a line about warfare again.
It spends time again disapproving of that polytheists do and calls their deeds evil, which implies that they should be devalued as human beings.
9:38 This existence, this world is not important. The afterlife is important. To get the good stuff in the afterlife, get up and march forth to war in the name of the jewish god.
9:39 And if you decide that you are not going to march forth to war, then the jewish god will fuck you up. He will send you to hell (painful torment) and you will get replaced by some other people.
Something about Mohamed being in a cave. Fuck the Polytheists.
The text repeats itself. Again, it says that you must march forth in the army of the jewish god and go and kill the polytheists. This would include jews and christians.

Now comes the line that interests you:

Quote:Surah At Tawba 9:43
May Allah pardon you ˹O Prophet˺! Why did you give them permission ˹to stay behind˺ before those who told the truth were distinguished from those who were lying? Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day do not ask for exemption from striving with their wealth and their lives. And Allah has perfect knowledge of those who are mindful ˹of Him˺. No one would ask for exemption except those who have no faith in Allah or the Last Day, and whose hearts are in doubt, so they are torn by their doubts. Had they ˹really˺ intended to march forth, they would have made preparations for it. But Allah disliked that they should go, so He let them lag behind, and it was said ˹to them˺, “Stay with those ˹helpless˺ who remain behind.” Had they gone forth with you ˹believers˺, they would have been nothing but trouble for you, and would have scrambled around, seeking to spread discord in your midst. And some of you would have eagerly listened to them. And Allah has ˹perfect˺ knowledge of the wrongdoers. They had already sought to spread discord before1 and devised every ˹possible˺ plot against you ˹O Prophet˺, until the truth came and Allah’s Will prevailed—much to their dismay.

I am not seeing anything embarrassing in the text.

Am I reading the right text or not? This is the second time you give me a text and I don’t see anything embarrassing. Is it me? Am I misunderstanding something?

This muslim sect was about to go to war against the polytheists (jews and christians might be included or included in a later war).
Some of the muslim people did not want to go.
I don’t know what conversation they had with Mohamed but apparently Mohamed agreed to let them live.
The line at 9:43 shows that the jewish god does not agree with Mohamed’s decision but just a few lines later, the jewish god agrees with Mohamed.

I don’t get it. Can you explain the lines in your own words. I want to see how you understand it.

Quote:Surah At Tawba 9:49
There are some of them who say, “Exempt me and do not expose me to temptation.”1 They have already fallen into temptation. And Hell will surely engulf the disbelievers. If a blessing befalls you ˹O Prophet˺, they grieve, but if a disaster befalls you, they say, “We took our precaution in advance,” and turn away, rejoicing. Say, “Nothing will ever befall us except what Allah has destined for us. He is our Protector.” So in Allah let the believers put their trust.

And the text continues. It essentially considers the muslims who wanted to stay behind at the camp as disbelievers, as fuckers, as fags, as bags of shit. They deserve hell.
It also says that if Mohamed fails to gain victory, these guys would say “Glad I didn’t go. Glad I’m safe.”

The lines above might be documenting actual events and the lines are obviously written after these events.
It might be that Mohamed won that war. i don’t know.
It looks like Mohamed is pissed off that some able body men decided to not risk their lives.


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Quote:At Tahrim 66:1
O Prophet! Why do you prohibit yourself from what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
The question is still: Why would he blame himslef in front of his companion?

I don’t know Mohamed personally and I don’t know his family members or any of his friends, so I can’t know definitely what happened a very long time ago.
Maybe he was unhappy with something that he did. He felt like confessing. He felt the need for help from the jewish god.
Maybe he wants to serve as a model, as a way to live for his followers.
Yes, sometimes guys like Mohamed server as teachers. They tell us directly how to live or gives examples from their lives.


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Quote:Surah Ar Ruum 30:2-4
The Romans have been defeated in a nearby land.1 Yet following their defeat, they will triumph within three to nine years.1 The ˹whole˺ matter rests with Allah before and after ˹victory˺. And on that day the believers will rejoice at the victory willed by Allah. He gives victory to whoever He wills. For He is the Almighty, Most Merciful.

So, the prophecy is that in 3 to 9 years, the Romans will win.
Sorry, I have no idea what this is about. Why does it say 3 to 9? Why can’t it give a specific time? What year is it. Where? With who are they at war? At what date and time was Surah Ar Ruum 30:2-4 written?

Quote:In those days the Byzantine occupied territories adjacent to Arabia were Jordan, Syria and Palestine, and in these territories the Romans were completely overpowered by the Persians in 615 A.D. And proved that later in 624 A.D, The Romans defeating Persians by destroyed Clorumia, the birthplace of Zoroaster, and ravaged the principal fire temple of Persian.

It isn’t clear in which days it is talking about. The text is not dated.
No mention of countries is made. No mention of cities is made. No mention of commanders, generals, leaders.
No mention of who the enemy is.
Besides, 615 and 624 are inferior numbers to 632, which is when Mohamed was dead and it is after that that some guys wrote the Koran. So we don’t know if previous to 615, Mohamed said those lines.

Quote:Surah Al Fath, 48:27
“Indeed, Allah will fulfil His Messenger’s vision in all truth: Allah willing, you will surely enter the Sacred Mosque, in security—some with heads shaved and others with hair shortened—without fear. He knew what you did not know, so He first granted you the triumph at hand”.

Those lines were written after 632, which is when Mohamed was dead and it is after that that some guys wrote the Koran.
In other words, they went into some sacred church, which I don’t know which one they are talking about. There was only 1 sacred church in Saudi Arabia?
You said that in 630, Mohamed and friends came to Mecca and went into some sacred church.
The text does not state 630 and it does not state who will enter the sacred church. In other words, if they had failed to enter in 630, there is no expiration date. Muslims could have succeeded in entering he sacred church in the year 2010 and you would say that the prophecy has been fulfilled.
It is similar in the case of Israel. The claim is that it was prophecized that jews would get back Israel and they did in 1948.

How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that in the 19 th century, an X number of elements would be discovered and that a certain person, I guess Mendelev would work on the periodic table of elements?
How about if Mohamed predicts in 630 that a very powerful weapon, called a nuclear weapon would be developed during the 193x?
It need not be something of a scientific nature. Mohamed could have drawn a map of New York, showed all the street names, all the bridges with names, a list of mayors.
Now that would be impressive.


For this one
Surah Kahfi 18:23-24
I’m guessing you are referring to this text:
Source:
https://quran.com/18

Quote:And never say of anything, “I will definitely do this tomorrow,” without adding, “if Allah so wills!” But if you forget, then remember your Lord, and say, “I trust my Lord will guide me to what is more right than this.” They had remained in their cave for three hundred years, adding nine.1

Quote:1.   The prophet was asked by some jewish about the story about “people in the cave”. The prophet said that he would answer him tomorrow expecting the revelation come but without saying insha Allah (If Allah willing). So the revelation delayed. The delaying was not short, but in 15 days, when finally the answer come as Surah Kahfi (18) :23-24.

Ok, some guys had remained in a cave for 300 y or 309 y.
I did not see anything about a revelation and 15 days but I guess the objective here is for me to take a guess.
Like I said, I don’t know Mohamed and what is going on in his head. Perhaps he needed time to meditate or he wanted to wait for some vision.
I am not seeing solid evidence of anything supernatural or anything that requires a god or alien powers.

Quote:The question is, if Muhammad peace be upon him just crafted the Quran by himself, why would he wait for so long to give an answer to his people? For the first case, he could easily answer the next day so that he can keep his promise. For second case, he could easily make “the verses that clear his wife name” in order that people not give bad opinion on him.

He could have waited for the next day or waited 15 days or maybe 30 days. I think it is fine. If it works, if the believers are impressed, then the religion works.
Like I said, I don’t know Mohamed and what is going on in his head. Perhaps he needed time to meditate or he wanted to wait for some vision.
I am not seeing solid evidence of anything supernatural or anything that requires a god or alien powers.
Am am not seeing anything impossible for a human to do.
It is possible that the alien is real and the alien was busy and he said, ok, give me 15 days and I will tell them what to do.
It is possible that the alien is just a vision that Mohamed is having and it took time for something to pop up in his mind.
I really don’t know what the case is.

The most important thing is for me to understand how your logic works and I am slowly learning how it works as long as you describe that such things are a mystery to you.

The rest of the stuff is probably of a similar concept so I am going to skip and jump to point F.

Quote:f.    Personal information of Prophet
There is no personal information of the Prophet in The Quran. The Muhammad’s name just mention in 4 times in the Quran, which is fewer than other mentions of other prophets. For example Moses 134 times in 34 surahs, as well as Jesus mentioned dozens of times. So if Muhammad had made the Quran himself, wouldn’t he have given himself more credit or at least talked about his struggle more often?

Mohamed is a mystery to you. You don’t understand why he did what he did. Maybe you should accept that you don’t know him personally. You should accept that you aren’t in his brain and you don’t know what operation are happening in his computer (brain). And I don’t know either.
I have seen all sorts of people in this world. There are a lot of bizarre people.
To me, it doesn’t seem like a huge mystery, so huge that I am going to think that a super intelligent alien wrote the Koran.

It is a mystery how Robert Zemeckis and Bob Gale wrote the Back to the Future story. Probably they typed it on a typewriter? Is that it? If I get a typewriter, would I produce a superb story?
How did Mozart compose such beautiful music? Was it his pen and paper? Can I get the same tools?
How does electricity work? What is light?

There are a lot of mysteries. Should we claim that it is some alien god thing behind these things, whenever we encounter a mystery, whenever we encounter something that doesn’t match normal expectations?




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Quote:2.  The Prophet used previous books to make Quran

You are claiming that Mohamed did not know how to read. I don’t know if this claim is true. It seems to be popular among believers to use this kind of argument.
Mormon believers tell me that their Joseph Smith was not educated and therefore, he could not be the author of the Book of Mormon.
Christians tell me that the students or whatever of Jesus were not intelligent, they were fisherman, did not know how to read and write and then, magic happening and suddenly, they could speak all languages and write these stories.

Too bad there aren’t reputable sources, reputable journalists, school papers that can back up these claims.

Note that I am not saying that Mohamed read a book.


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Quote:3.  The Prophet used someone’s help
 
Was it any Jew or Christian that help Muhammad to create the Quran? Well, in the authentic (shahih) hadith, we will only find single hadith about the encounter between The Prophet and someone called Waraqa bin Naufal (a Christian). However The Prophet met Waraqah bin Naufal after the revelation came to him, not before revelation. Besides, in the hadith, Waraqah even testifies that Muhammad peace be upon him was the Prophet. So how could he have been the one who would help him to write the Quran?
Even if it wasn’t Waraqah and it was other Christian or Jew who would help The Prophet to write The Quran, how could they allow him to write verses like these:
a.   They are surely infidels who say “God is The Christ son of Mary” (Al Maidah, 5:72)
b.   You will be find the Jews and idolaters most excessive in hatred of those who believe (Al Maidah, 5:82)
How can it make sense that Jew or Christian would help The Prophet write something like that?

I don’t think a jew or christian helped Mohamed create the Koran.
According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran

Quote:Thus, a group of scribes, most importantly Zayd, collected the verses and produced a hand-written manuscript of the complete book.

Quote:The Prophet and someone called Waraqa bin Naufal (a Christian). However The Prophet met Waraqah bin Naufal after the revelation came to him, not before revelation. Besides, in the hadith, Waraqah even testifies that Muhammad peace be upon him was the Prophet. So how could he have been the one who would help him to write the Quran?

It is possible that not everything is recorded in the Koran and related written material.
Waraqah can testify all he likes. I understand that he was impressed with Mohamed and that is fine, but I don’t place much value into such testimony, specially with matters of religion.
We need modern critics to question Mohamed. Better yet, give me 2 prophets and we can place them in 2 separate rooms and we can question them. if the jewish go is really telecommunicating with these 2, we would be able to find out.

The most likely explanation is that christians were going from city to city, land to land, country to country and spreading their religion. Some would listen and some would not. That is how christianity spread in the first few centuries.
When such a naturalistic and obvious explanation is present, I have no need to believe in magical invisible alien people who don’t show themselves.

But thank you for considering the possibility of a jew or christian that sat with Mohamed and showed him some text and helped Mohamed write the Koran. At least you are considering a few. I don’t know why you are avoiding the obvious possibilities.

Quote:4.  The Prophet got it from satan
Well, I guess you denied this possibility. Because you didn’t believe the satan existence. But I just give reason that it would impossible if it come from satan:
a.   We as a muslim are taught to seek refuge from satan before starting to recite Al Quran
“O, when you recite The Quran, seek refuge in God from Satan the execrable” (An Nahl 16:98)
b.   Numerous verses in the Quran declaring satans as the mortal foe of humans

I understand why christians would make such a claim. Islam seems like a foreign religion. It comes from an arab. Also, christianity already exists, which is the true religion from their POV, so when a new religion gets invented, it must obviously be from Satan or something.
If there is a problem with the Bible, the most obvious solution would be for the jewish god to correct the Bible immediately instead of waiting 600 y. This is quite obvious to me.

I suppose it is possible that it is the work of Satan and that he wants you to worship some other god instead of worshiping the jewish god. How can we be sure that the god of the Koran is the same as the god of the jews?

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Quote:How could it be possible that satan helped the Prophet to write verses that cursing himself and declaring him as the enemy. And why would satan tell his plan to tempt humans and expose himself like that. Therefore it is impossible for satan to have held the Prophet write The Quran.

It depends on how stupid Satan is.
If Satan is absolutely stupid, has very little knowledge of humans, he would show up and say “Hey, I am Satan, I am evil, worship me.”

A more clever Satan would say “Hey, I am god. Worship me. Don’t worship Satan. Look over there, that guy is Satan!”
BTW, do you have a picture of your god and Satan?


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Quote:Now I would ask you, Quran is exist. It is one of the phenomena of the nature in universe, as well as others. It is impossible being made by human. Then, how could you explain how it came into existence? Was it like the causing of life, which is science has not now yet? Or just Occam Razor, that it just the way it did. No more explanation.

Yes, in the sciences, we go with Occam’s Razor. There is a reason why we go with Occam’s Razor? Do you know why?

You are asking me if it is possible that it is man made? Sure, why not.
I didn’t see anything extraordinarily intelligent in the Koran so far. I have read 2 pages.
I have read all the Bible. Nothing extraordinarily intelligent. It looks like the product from primitive humans.
There are no valuable predictions in the Bible. it is just vagueries.

Quote:Was it like the causing of life, which is science has not now yet?

Well, explain to me how it rains.

Quote:That it was God who communicate to human. He is unseen

So, why doesn’t he communicate with people right now?


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In this case, we normally know that language and literature were made by human. This is because we just see the fact that it all were made by human as far as we know. But there were so many texts that considered to be odd, because it contains prophecies that are true, science that human has yet know today, and so on. It’s not only Al Quran actually having those characteristics. Some books of other religion contains those aspect as well.
For example, about prophecies that are true:
In the Bible the name of coming prophet of Muhammad was mentioned by name:
1. The Bible
a. In the Song of Solomon 5:16
The Hebrew original text:
hikvō mamətaqqîm vəkullvō mahămadîm zeh dwōdî vəzeh rē‘î bənwōt yərûšālāim
“His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is Mahammadim. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem”
Note: Part of text that I gave italic on it is translated in English Bible as “altogether lovely”. While the correct one is must be not changed and still “Mahammad” or Muhammad. Because it was the name of the person as hebrew language depicting. Hebrew people, when they want to give homage to an honoured person, they just ad suffix “im”. If you try to find in the google translate, the original written of “mahămadîm”, which is מוחמד, would be translated at Muhammad.

b. Gospel of Barnabas
“The disciples answered: O Master, who shall that man be of whom you speak, who shall come into the world? Jesus answered with joy of heart: He is Muhammad; Messenger of God, and when he comes into the world, even as the rain makes the earth to bear fruit when for a long time it has not rained, even so shall he be occasion of good works among men, through the abundant mercy which he shall bring. For he is a white cloud full of the mercy of God, which mercy God shall sprinkle upon the faithful like rain.” (The Gospel of Barnabas:163)
It is a fact that the Trinitarian church has done its utmost to dismissing all existing copies of the Gospel of Barnabas and to either hide it from the masses or to label it a forgery.

In The Hindu Scripture, the name of Muhammad (basically, the name Ahmad/Muhammad means “the praised one”) also prophecied even with his characteristics.
According to Bhavishya Purana in the Prati Sarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 5 to 8:

“A malecha (belonging to a foreign country and speaking a foreign language) spiritual teacher will appear with his companions. His name will be Muhamad. Raja (Bhoj) after giving this Maha Dev Arab (of angelic disposition) a bath in the Panchgavya and the Ganga water (i.e. purifying him of all sins) offered him the present of his sincere devotion and showing him all reverence said, “I make obeisance to thee. O ye! The pride of mankind, the dweller in Arabia, Ye have collected a great force to kill the Devil and you yourself have been protected from the malecha opponents.”

In the Kuntap Suktas i.e. in Atharvaveda book 20 Hymn 127:

1. Mantra1
He is Narashansah or the praised one (Muhammad). He is Kaurama: the prince of peace or the emigrant, who is safe, even amongst a host of 60,090 enemies.
2. Mantra2
He is a camel-riding Rishi, whose chariot touches the heaven.

Those prophecies clearly depicting Muhammad with his characteristics in Islam history.
Then as an open minded human, I also accept that some contents passages in the other scripture must be came from God as well, not exclusively for Quran only. But the difference is the other scripture proved to be fabricated at some of their passages. This is the evidence:
I quoted from Wikipedia in the entry of “Trinity”:
“Modern Biblical scholarship largely agrees that 1 John 5:7 seen in Latin and Greek texts after the 4th century and found in later translations such as the King James Translation, cannot be found in the oldest Greek and Latin texts. Verse 7 is known as the Johannine Comma, which most scholars agree to be a later addition by a later copyist or what is termed a textual gloss and not part of the original text. This verse reads:
Because there are three in Heaven that testify – the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit – and these three are one.
This verse is absent from the Ethiopic, Aramaic, Syriac, Slavic, early Armenian, Georgian, and Arabic translations of the Greek New Testament. It is primarily found in Latin manuscripts, although a minority of Greek, Slavonic and late Armenian manuscripts contain it.”

As long as time goes, scientist never found the similar case thing in Al Quran. The style of Quran is not like “groups of theologians adding their tought to the God’s way”. But it was revealed to Muhammad peace be upon him words by words and gradually, through Angel Gabriel. There were no evidence that Quran was fabricated in some time in the past. That’s why I demand you to give evidence of “the crafted of Quran” because it would be fair and the debate would go academically.
All that I found thus support my proposition that some texts was indeed impossible made by human. Note that the term “impossible” here is neutral, objective, and depicting the reality.
So the proposition “all literature possibly made by human” proved to be wrong. Because there were exceptions in reality.
FYI, there was one researcher namely Professor Angelika Neuwirth, Germany non muslim, expert in Islamic studies, once said this when researching about Quran:

“Poetry by virtue of its cache of panegyrics of particular tribes, lampoons of others has been labeled the Dewan al Arab, the archive of the Arabs. The realm of ideas put forward by these texts is however limited to their particular milieu which can be captured through an equally limited scope of literary genres. The narrative to report heroic tales, the panegyric employed poetical sections extolling the poets tribe “fakhr” and the descriptive in the middle part of the Qasida which depicts the poets Camel of his itinerary through the desert.”
“Most of the rock inscriptions.. are extremely short and mostly dedicated to private, ephemeral issues. Important to note, is the almost total absence of discursive speech. There are no theological, legal, or cultic debates in pre islamic poetry. Indeed little theoretical thinking can be traced. If we do not concede one important exception. The “dhikr al athlaal” section, the lament on the deserted encampments. There is arguably a serious philosophical interst lurking in the naseeb: the introductory part of Qasida.”
“The Naseeb, which often starts with the athlaal motif, the poets nostalgic lament on the side of the ruined encampment where he remembers a happy past in the company of his friends and his mistress. The naseeb is uniquely open to poetical introspection. It invites reflections on the transitoriness of emotional fulfillment and moreover on the futility of human life as such”.
“It is a striking fact then that the Quran appears seemingly out of the void as a full fledged discursive text extensive in range and replete with theological and philosophical queries.”
“This observation has been vexing western scholars for generations. The Quran surprising richness, of ideas and it’s consummate form.. How can an intellectually sophisticated literary text emerge from remote place like the Arab peninsula?”
“Yet the fact remains that the Quran comes as a sudden disclosure in Arabic language, of until then unspoken of, or at least unattested discursive ideas.. I propose to read the Quran as nothing less than the document of a cultural turn, an epistemic revolution.”
So, Professor Angelika Neuwirth basically considered as well that Quran is seemingly impossible come from Arabs people.

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