I don't see the issue here, The image of what a man is and how he is to act and dress have been very well established...

(November 21, 2024 at 7:37 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 7:36 am)Sheldon Wrote: Well he claimed that we only have the subjective claim of the patient, which isn't true of course.

See my question above.

If a person behaves "like a man" but reports that they are a woman, what do we conclude?

What if a person is born a biological man, but their real gender identity is a woman, but they are lying and pretending they're a man, because they realise women often get a shitty deal compared to men?

I love what ifs, they're really fun to play with. What if we're in the Matrix, and it decides our gender for us?

Look at Captain Jack Sparrow. With all that makeup and feminine gestures, must be female according to a certain someone.

There are objective differences between the brains of trans people and cis people, that can be determined post-mortem or with expensive tests.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

(November 21, 2024 at 2:24 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: There are objective differences between the brains of trans people and cis people, that can be determined post-mortem or with expensive tests.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

Shit, we have to wait until they're dead, god damn it.

(November 21, 2024 at 7:36 am)Belacqua Wrote: If a person behaves in ways that are traditionally associated with being male, but reports that they are in fact female, what do we conclude?

We conclude that the above question is internally inconsistent. The behavior of identifying as female is not traditionally associated with being male.

Quote:Yes, I believe that psychiatric diagnoses contain a very large subjective element. Psychiatrists can reach very different diagnoses concerning the same patient.

Show me a single more useful metric, because the eternal bleating of the politicians and their ilk with their baseless, misbegotten opinions isn't worth a damn. I'll take psychology over ideology any day of the week.

(November 21, 2024 at 7:33 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 7:20 am)Paleophyte Wrote: Actually, it already has. According to the current version of the DSM-5 "It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder." The disorder that commonly arises in gender dysphoria is a result of the stress produced when a person's experienced gender doesn't match with societal and cultural expectations. Or in simpler terms, society is the problem and we're sorry that you need a therapist to deal with it.

That's good to know. I'm glad that the professionals are coming around.

That's from over a decade ago.

Quote:Psychiatry is notoriously subjective in its diagnoses.

Whereas politics and talking heads on YouTube are ever so much more reliable.

Quote:The fact that something can be a disorder one year and not one the next is a little troubling.

Yes, we really need to stop updating our understanding based on new information.

Quote:I know a psychiatrist

Glad to hear it.

(November 21, 2024 at 8:08 am)Belacqua Wrote: I agree that we have to keep an open mind, and just accept that we hold some things to be true despite a lack of objective evidence.

It's pretty telling how you can't seem to apply this standard of objectivity equally. Do you have objective evidence for denying this person the right to identify any way that they wish? If not then kindly look at the objective evidence for the increased rates of assault, sexual assault, and murder perpetrated against trans individuals and the resulting increase in suicide rates. It's about as clear as you can get where the harm and wrong is in this equation.

(November 21, 2024 at 2:27 pm)brewer Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 2:24 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: There are objective differences between the brains of trans people and cis people, that can be determined post-mortem or with expensive tests.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

Shit, we have to wait until they're dead, god damn it.

Actually, we don't, and an MRI isn't all that expensive.

(November 21, 2024 at 12:55 pm)Silver Wrote: Look at Captain Jack Sparrow. With all that makeup and feminine gestures, must be female according to a certain someone.

TBH, I've always wondered about the Pope, though there's a good argument to be made that he's just so far in the closet that he'd have to come out to find Narnia.