(November 22, 2024 at 7:31 am)Belacqua Wrote: What objective evidence do we have that an individual's gender differs from their biological sex? 

I've answered this more than once already, so I am not sure why you keep repeating the question?

Quote:What can we do to objectively verify that pain exists other than this? (An fMRI shows that some activity is occurring, but does not tell us what the experience is like for the person having the experience.)

As I said, the experience of pain is subjective, it's existence is however can be supported by objective evidence. Not unlike gender dysphoria then.

"Pain is often accompanied by quantifiable physiological parameters, such as increased heart rate, blood pressure, and stress hormones."

"Skin conductance increases when the autonomic nervous system is activated during pain."

"Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and electroencephalograph (EEG) can visualize brain activity that is modulated by analgesics."

"Dynamic pain connectome analysis can identify alterations in neural network connectivity that correlate with pain severity."

"Medical tests, such as diagnoses, assessment procedures, and certifications, can objectify pain and validate its existence."

"Behavioral responses and verbal communication can be observed and measured."

The experience is subjective, but there is objective evidence that pain exists.

(November 22, 2024 at 10:16 am)Ravenshire Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 10:54 pm)Belacqua Wrote: If a person had the brain formation which is associated with being cis, and said sincerely that he was trans, which would you believe?

I wouldn't fucking care, and I don't understand the mindset that is obsessed by it, and wants to eliminate it.

I concur, why do we accept someone's claim they are straight? How would we know they were telling the truth? So I am wondering which answer is going convince @Belacqua that heterosexual people can't be objectively evidenced to exist?

(November 22, 2024 at 7:31 am)Belacqua Wrote: We cannot know what another person's pain is like. We assume it is the same kind of thing that we feel, because we describe it in the same way and react in the same way. This is what intersubjectivity means.

Let's try a simple thought experiment involving a blow torch and your scrotum. Due to >Insert Daft Bafflegab Here< we can't know for certain that you're actually suffering from the application of a welding flame to your genitals. We cannot know what your pain is like. The only objective evidence that we have is a little testicular charring and a rather unpleasant roasting smell, but for all we know you're having the time of your life.

Or do we assume that what I've written above is utter absurdity, that any needless suffering is morally wrong regardless of variations in experience, and that anybody supporting said suffering is misguided at best and probably ought to be placed on a watch list?

(November 22, 2024 at 4:45 pm)Paleophyte Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 7:31 am)Belacqua Wrote: We cannot know what another person's pain is like. We assume it is the same kind of thing that we feel, because we describe it in the same way and react in the same way. This is what intersubjectivity means.

Let's try a simple thought experiment involving a blow torch and your scrotum. Due to >Insert Daft Bafflegab Here< we can't know for certain that you're actually suffering from the application of a welding flame to your genitals. We cannot know what your pain is like. The only objective evidence that we have is a little testicular charring and a rather unpleasant roasting smell, but for all we know you're having the time of your life.

Or do we assume that what I've written above is utter absurdity, that any needless suffering is morally wrong regardless of variations in experience, and that anybody supporting said suffering is misguided at best and probably ought to be placed on a watch list?

Also worth noting that pain is not just subjective, but relative, since we are all born with differing pain thresholds. Very occasionally people are born with no pain threshold at all, and can feel no pain.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h...s-47719718

"Jo Cameron only realises her skin is burning when she smells singed flesh. She often burns her arms on the oven, but feels no pain to warn her.


That's because she is one of only two people in the world known to have a rare genetic mutation.

It means she feels virtually no pain, and never feels anxious or afraid."

And of course whilst we are born with a pain threshold we cannot alter, parenthetically we can alter our pain tolerance.

Maybe she's just a very good liar @Belacqua? Then again...

"Dr Devjit Srivastava - sent her to pain geneticists at University College London (UCL) and Oxford University.

After tests, they found gene mutations which meant that she did not feel pain like most people."

Wouldn't that be objective evidence? Don't ask me I am not a geneticist...

(November 22, 2024 at 10:16 am)Ravenshire Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 10:54 pm)Belacqua Wrote: If a person had the brain formation which is associated with being cis, and said sincerely that he was trans, which would you believe?

I wouldn't fucking care, and I don't understand the mindset that is obsessed by it, and wants to eliminate it.

I would care to the extent that I want people to listen to what trans people say, and not try to replace their subjective experience with some objective test which may or may not confirm what they've already said.

(November 22, 2024 at 11:02 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 4:56 am)Belacqua Wrote: This is basically how intersubjectivity works. You have no empirical evidence to tell you how others feel, but you can extrapolate based on your own experience.

I don't know how you would feel after being hit in the face with a two-by-four, but that doesn't mean that would give you an orgasm. There's many subjective experiences  that we cannot share, but many we can imagine -- at least if we have a sense of empathy.

Yes, thank you. This is further confirmation that intersubjectivity provides very persuasive evidence.

Quote:

(November 22, 2024 at 7:31 am)Belacqua Wrote: What objective evidence do we have that an individual's gender differs from their biological sex? 

I've answered this more than once already, so I am not sure why you keep repeating the question? 

You've asserted that the evidence exists. 

Quote:The experience is subjective, but there is objective evidence that pain exists.

That's certainly true. Though later in the thread we hear that some people don't feel pain and might fake it. 

We do not feel another person's pain. We observe their reactions and (very properly) assume that what they are feeling is like what we feel when we feel pain. 

Skin conduction, etc., are not pain. They are associated with pain. So we have objective evidence that something is happening, and given our experience we are reasonable to think that their pain is like our pain. This is what intersubjectivity means.

(November 22, 2024 at 4:45 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: Or do we assume that what I've written above is utter absurdity, that any needless suffering is morally wrong regardless of variations in experience, and that anybody supporting said suffering is misguided at best and probably ought to be placed on a watch list?

I have argued that we have good reasons to identify suffering in others. I have certainly never argued that we should be in favor of others' suffering. 

I think we should believe the testimony that people give to us, and take them seriously. Though their experience may be very different from our own, empathy and human feeling means we will want to help them.

(November 22, 2024 at 5:13 pm)Sheldon Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 4:45 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: Let's try a simple thought experiment involving a blow torch and your scrotum. Due to >Insert Daft Bafflegab Here< we can't know for certain that you're actually suffering from the application of a welding flame to your genitals. We cannot know what your pain is like. The only objective evidence that we have is a little testicular charring and a rather unpleasant roasting smell, but for all we know you're having the time of your life.

Or do we assume that what I've written above is utter absurdity, that any needless suffering is morally wrong regardless of variations in experience, and that anybody supporting said suffering is misguided at best and probably ought to be placed on a watch list?

Also worth noting that pain is not just subjective, but relative, since we are all born with differing pain thresholds. Very occasionally people are born with no pain threshold at all, and can feel no pain.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h...s-47719718

"Jo Cameron only realises her skin is burning when she smells singed flesh. She often burns her arms on the oven, but feels no pain to warn her.


That's because she is one of only two people in the world known to have a rare genetic mutation.

It means she feels virtually no pain, and never feels anxious or afraid."

And of course whilst we are born with a pain threshold we cannot alter, parenthetically we can alter our pain tolerance.

Maybe she's just a very good liar @Belacqua? Then again...

"Dr Devjit Srivastava - sent her to pain geneticists at University College London (UCL) and Oxford University.

After tests, they found gene mutations which meant that she did not feel pain like most people."

Wouldn't that be objective evidence? Don't ask me I am not a geneticist...

Yes, this is a good point. In some very few cases, the normal objective tests we give to determine someone's feelings might not apply to an individual. 

If she says she doesn't feel pain, when most people would, then we should be very careful in dealing with her. Maybe she's lying, but you wouldn't want to jump to that conclusion just because your objective tests failed to detect the truth in this case.

(November 22, 2024 at 8:25 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 5:13 pm)Sheldon Wrote: Also worth noting that pain is not just subjective, but relative, since we are all born with differing pain thresholds. Very occasionally people are born with no pain threshold at all, and can feel no pain.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h...s-47719718

"Jo Cameron only realises her skin is burning when she smells singed flesh. She often burns her arms on the oven, but feels no pain to warn her.


That's because she is one of only two people in the world known to have a rare genetic mutation.

It means she feels virtually no pain, and never feels anxious or afraid."

And of course whilst we are born with a pain threshold we cannot alter, parenthetically we can alter our pain tolerance.

Maybe she's just a very good liar @Belacqua? Then again...

"Dr Devjit Srivastava - sent her to pain geneticists at University College London (UCL) and Oxford University.

After tests, they found gene mutations which meant that she did not feel pain like most people."

Wouldn't that be objective evidence? Don't ask me I am not a geneticist...

Yes, this is a good point. In some very few cases, the normal objective tests we give to determine someone's feelings might not apply to an individual. 

If she says she doesn't feel pain, when most people would, then we should be very careful in dealing with her. Maybe she's lying, but you wouldn't want to jump to that conclusion just because your objective tests failed to detect the truth in this case.

Levity?