(December 4, 2024 at 12:00 am)TheWhiteMarten Wrote:

Quote:No we understand it's not about life it's about control.

You "perceive" this, but like many things it's a false perception based on internal biases and ignorance of the actual positions held by your opponents.

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Euthanasia, - May 5, 1980 

      II.  Catechism of the Catholic Church:


[b]Suicide

2280 - Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.[/b]

I don't necessarily agree that it's all about control, but your response does little to refute his contention as it's possible for there to be a well developed and seemingly logical doctrine on the subject and for it also to be primarily about control. The two aren't mutually exclusive. As a politician can cloak the reasons for their actions in impeccable justifications, all the while omitting the underlying raison d'etre that gives impetus to their actions, so Christianity's reasons may cloak a more basic motive of control. People go to therapy for years to understand their sublimations and how their actions defy their surface interests, reflecting deeper truths. Things can have multiple, independent aspects, with the most privileged of the aspects being hidden from view. Ultimately, Chritianity is about morals, and morals ultimately are about controlling behavior. At best, it suggests you don't really understand his thesis.

(December 4, 2024 at 12:00 am)TheWhiteMarten Wrote:

Quote:No we understand it's not about life it's about control.

You "perceive" this, but like many things it's a false perception based on internal biases and ignorance of the actual positions held by your opponents.

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Euthanasia, - May 5, 1980 

      II.  Catechism of the Catholic Church:


[b]Suicide

2280 - Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.[/b]

Since those who don't share your belief in this doctrine would necessarily from part of the demographic everyone, telling "everyone" what you imagine a deity that you imagine is real insists they must do, while simultaneously telling us it's not about control, seems pretty dubious, as does the existence of the imaginary deity. 

1. I am not responsible for my life to any deities, imaginary or otherwise. 
2. No deity is sovereign over my life, imaginary or otherwise.
3. I am not obliged to be grateful to any deity for anything, including imaginary superstitions like souls. 
4. I am not a steward of my life, I am the owner of it, and I would grant the same to anyone else who wished it, get over it. 
5. No deity has entrusted anything to me, and my life is mine to do with as I see fit, again I suggest you get over it. 

You will note, that I am not telling anyone else they must feel the same way as I do, see the difference?

Quote:…mortal sin being the taking of a life…

This is another stupid thing religious people say.

Boru

(December 4, 2024 at 12:01 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:…mortal sin being the taking of a life…

This is another stupid thing religious people say.

Boru

I'm sorry you believe carelessly and unjustly taking human life isn't a bad thing and perhaps even wise, though it certainly explains a lot.

(December 4, 2024 at 1:29 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote:

(December 4, 2024 at 12:01 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: This is another stupid thing religious people say.

Boru

I'm sorry you believe carelessly and unjustly taking human life isn't a bad thing and perhaps even wise, though it certainly explains a lot.

I didn’t say that, and you’re changing the phrasing which is somewhat less than honest of you. 

For the record, I believe it IS a bad thing. I said it doesn’t qualify as a mortal sin. The Roman church says so.

Boru

Right, in Catholicism murder can be forgiven, but suicide cannot. The Bible is mute on the subject of suicide, but you can't expect it to be a detailed guide on everything to do with morality.

(December 4, 2024 at 2:07 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Right, in Catholicism murder can be forgiven, but suicide cannot. The Bible is mute on the subject of suicide, but you can't expect it to be a detailed guide on everything to do with morality.

Even mortal sins can be forgiven. The Church is actually kind of fuzzy on whether suicide is a mortal sin.

My issue is that Marten seems to equate ‘taking life’ with ‘murder’. 

Boru

(December 4, 2024 at 1:37 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 4, 2024 at 1:29 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote: I'm sorry you believe carelessly and unjustly taking human life isn't a bad thing and perhaps even wise, though it certainly explains a lot.

I didn’t say that, and you’re changing the phrasing which is somewhat less than honest of you. 

Annoying, isn't it?

(December 4, 2024 at 2:07 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Right, in Catholicism murder can be forgiven, but suicide cannot.

Right, because it's generally hard to seek redemption for something when you are dead.

It's why we don't give people 5 years in prison for successfully committing suicide - kinda pointless.