The Bible refers to bats as birds, whales as fish, and the sun and stars as different celestial bodies. For FSM's sake, while SuperJeebus was strolling around speaking in circles and reanimating corpses, the rest of the world had long since discovered mathematics, astronomy, basic physiology, basic neurology, sanitation and agricultural practices that work, basic medicinal practices, naval engineering, amazing architecture, not to mention art from the period. But none of that shit comes from the holy Land. Your god basically landed in the midst of the dumbest group of people on the planet and taught them nothing. The Egyptians built the pyramids, a feat almost unbelievable even today, some 1500 years before God incarnate walked among us?

Just admit it dude. Your examples of highly interpretive dribble randomly placed in the largest and most popular political propaganda Compendium is not sufficient evidence of divine guidance from the creator of the universe. It was iron age superstitions and prejudices that people like YOU pretend still has relevance.

(January 2, 2012 at 5:50 pm)SleepingDemon Wrote: The Bible refers to bats as birds, whales as fish, and the sun and stars as different celestial bodies. For FSM's sake, while SuperJeebus was strolling around speaking in circles and reanimating corpses, the rest of the world had long since discovered mathematics, astronomy, basic physiology, basic neurology, sanitation and agricultural practices that work, basic medicinal practices, naval engineering, amazing architecture, not to mention art from the period. But none of that shit comes from the holy Land. Your god basically landed in the midst of the dumbest group of people on the planet and taught them nothing. The Egyptians built the pyramids, a feat almost unbelievable even today, some 1500 years before God incarnate walked among us?

I'll be very surprised if this hasn't been posted before, since it's not exactly a recent article; however it does seem relevant for some reason:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sumeria...worl,2879/

(January 2, 2012 at 4:03 pm)chipan Wrote: the bible actually makes a few scientific claims that aren't wrong.

Even under the dubious claim that this is true (it isn't), the inaccuracies far outnumber whatever claims you recommend and the language used is so broad that they can be interpreted in any way you see fit.
Show me a part of the bible that explains 10-dimensional plasma physics (that is a real thing by the way - it would just be plasma physics using string theory) or something as opposed to a passge that might allow you to interpret a way that maybe leans one way or the other.

But hey, you provided actual passages and some reading material.
I have other work yet to do today now that my bills are paid, but I'll try to do as much as I can here before I move on to that.

(January 2, 2012 at 4:03 pm)chipan Wrote: Job 26:7- speaks of in the northern heavens there is a vast space in which the most powerful telescopes have been unable to locate any celestial bodies. in every other direction stars can be found but not there. it also says he hangs the earth upon nothing, which is it speaking of the fact that the earth is floating in space not supported by anything (as it doesn't need to be supported). Ptolemy, Aristotle, and Plato all thought that the earth was a flat disc of land surrounded by a great world river.

Whooo-boy.
Where do I begin?

Job 26:7 Wrote:26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Just looking at that individual passage, it well, sounds out of place. It certainly doesn't sound like it's describing the Earth in the Vacuum of space.
That wouldn't even be technically accurate. The Earth and Moon and bound to one another. The Earth is bound to the sun by the sun's gravity. The sun is bound to the Milky Way Galaxy's billion+ mass black hole at the core, the milky way galaxy itself is bound by the gravitational influence of the local supercluster.
So I suppose I'll be generous and say you can interpret that any way you want but that's only looking at that one quote.

Reading the entire chapter - here is my interpretation of events -
Job is talking to "Bildad the Shuhite" and describing how the great can help the weak and powerless.
Hell is naked before him. "He" stretched over the north and hung the earth upon nothing. He bound water into clouds and did not rent the cloudsn before him. He holds back the face of his throne and spreads a cloud upon it. The waters are compassed with bounds until the day and night come to an end. The pillars of the heavens tremble. The sea is divided with 'his' power. Being garnished above the heavens, his hand hath formed a crooked serpent.
The thunder of his power who can understand?

This doesn't sound like an astonishing revelation of astronomy from bblical scripture. It sounds like what has happened is the full scope of god's view, power, and the world is brought to bear to the understanding of the reader and the characters involved - a description of the scope of everything of Job to one of his accusers.

This descriptoin entirely conforms with this:



See and understand for yourself.

(January 2, 2012 at 4:03 pm)chipan Wrote: Luke 17:24-36- Jesus speaks of his second coming. He points out that for some His return would be during the day and for others it would be at night. this establishes that the earth is round and there is day on one side of the earth and night on the other.

Either that or the bible is just inconsistent with itself - or the flat earth above still has a night and day cycle.
(Genesis would confirm this as god seporated night from the day.

There's nothing really there to describe what you're saying or to even suggest a spherical earth. If anything, it just suggests that Jesus' return won't be subtle. As a special note, Jesus doesn't seem to have much of a problem with god's genocide of the world during Noah's time.
Still though identifying and understanding that the world has both night and day doesn't alone point to that they understand that the earth is spherical (or more accurately elipsoidal.)

(January 2, 2012 at 4:03 pm)chipan Wrote: Proverbs 8:27- states that God “set a compass (or circle) upon the face of the depth.” Isaiah teaches, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth. (back then there was no word for sphere for the hebrew)

Heaven and sky are also the same word in hebrew. Keep that in mind whenever the bible mentions that Jesus or god ascend or open the gates to heaven.
I should also point out that there are plenty of ways to describe that the earth is as we understand it in modern times. The statement is completely consistent with a flat earth. That could just as easily describe an actual circle but it becomes more likely if you put it into the context of every passage about the earth in the bible.

(January 2, 2012 at 4:03 pm)chipan Wrote: Isaiah 40:22- not only states that the earth's round, but has a part where God "streaches out the heavens." this refers to the fact that the universe is expanding.

Speaking of a stretch...

Isaiah 40:22 Wrote:It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

God views the people of the earth from the sky from his throne and the sky stretches out like a curtain like a tent for humanity to dwell within.
Yeah, that sounds like the earth is a sphere and the universe is expanding all right. I'm still having difficulty finding the chapter that describes the red shift of distant galaxies.

(January 2, 2012 at 4:03 pm)chipan Wrote: Psalms 8:8- the paths of the sea- This passage led Matthew Fontaine Maury to discover the safest paths of ocean travel. We now know that there are great rivers such as the Gulf Stream and the Labrador Current which pursue their “paths” across the ocean.

Pslams 8 Wrote:Psalm 8
8:1 O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
8:6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
8:7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
8:9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Here's the entire Pslams 8 chapter. 8:8 is highlighted red.

It sounds more like a tirade about how glorious god is supposed to be than anything, but in this chapter, it mentions the 'paths of the sea'.
Is that it? You could interpret that any way you wait - rivers, trading rounds, sea-based passages, rivers - basically any line connecting two points through the ocean or other such route.j
That's not evidence of knowledge of any specific features of the earth or earth's oceans.

(January 2, 2012 at 4:03 pm)chipan Wrote: this evidence was found on this site and there is much more evidence here
http://teacherscommentary.net/salvation/whythebible.pdf

So...
The bible is true because
1) it's popular?
--Appeal to Popularity Fallacy
2) Morality - the Bible is a fine moral guide for humans!
--HAH! We went over just two moral arguements in the bible and it did not fare well at all. Those were two of the most egregrious examples but they are far from the only ones.
3) Unity -- The bible has 1500 authors and they consistently weave a story about ultimate redemption with the messiah.
--The bible is none of those things. THere is an uncountable number of divisions within what has been coined the "Christian" faith based on this book because of its inconsistencies both general and with its own message. Further, like a completely unnecessary sequel, the New Testiment is a revision of the old testiment (like a movie sequel that retroactively changes cannon events or history of a story). The Jewish people don't even accept Jesus as the Messiah. There are few if any unifying aspects of this book.
4) The Person of Jesus Christ -- No "student of history" can deny the influence of Jesus upon the world.
-- I'm going to ignore the easy point of discussing whether Christianity's influence on the world as positive or negative just to say this:
- There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus.
- More importantly, Jesus' divinity is not agreed upon by all faiths. It's not even agreed upon that he's the messiah.
5) Impartiality -- The bible is not partial to anyone
-- Utter bullshit. The bible go a long way to tell you who god favors in and out of the bible and who god does not.
Also - women and slaves are completely glossed over outside of a few passages that tell you not to murder or maim some of them unless they get uppidy or shame the men in their life. That's just the tip of the iceburg.
6) Everything else
-- I got tired of looking at this paper. There's no evidence of anything - it's self masterbating claptrap that doesn't even seem to understand the book it is talking about.
It's ignorant, its' vile, and it's so far from honesty of any kind, that the Kepler telescope couldnt' find it even if it knew where to look.

(January 2, 2012 at 4:19 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: You are so wrong, you are possibly the thickest person on planet earth.

You do realize, you can't actually measure infinite density. And how is this one any "more" than the other one? They come out of a machine somewhere. China, I think.

(January 2, 2012 at 5:50 pm)SleepingDemon Wrote: Your god basically landed in the midst of the dumbest group of people on the planet and taught them nothing.

Which is the dumbest group of people my friend?
The OT is Jewish and the NT is Greek.
Do you believe everything that is written in the NT? You do not! Then why believe that the Greek gospel writers had in mind a Jew Jesus and not a Roman or a Greek one?

The place was chosen because it offered the only available ONE GOD at the time.

Do not let theologians pull your leg.

Oh my goodness yes, I cannot stand when people say atheism is a religion! It's a lack of. Atheists all over have their own beliefs and everything so really, we create our own religion. Our own way of thinking. Everyone else actually believes in god or whoever therefore are part of a religion. But... argh... we are not a religious cult or gathering of any kind. We just all share the notion that a god does not exist.

TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote:There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus.

i'm so sick of people saying this i've posted so much evidence on other threads. fine i'll post them here since you are unconvinced. here are historical doccuments.

1. CLEMENT OF ROME (? - 98? A.D.) Clement was a bishop of Rome and later became known as the fourth pope. He was eventually martyred in approximately 98 A.D. Some speculate Paul was referring to Clement in Philippians 4:3 but this cannot be proven. Clement was a first century apostolic author which gives credence to his first-hand account of early Christianity. In the passage below, Clement confirms the ministry of the disciples and some of the basic tenets of early Christianity.

"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and being fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God will full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their first fruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."

2. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D) Ignatius was a Bishop of Antioch reported to have been appointed to his position by Peter of whom he was a disciple. He is also believed to be a disciple of Paul and John. Ignatius was arrested by the Romans and executed as a martyr in the arena. Even though his testimony would ultimately lead to his death, Ignatius was adamant about the things he witnessed. He reinforces early Christian beliefs in the letters he penned while in prison. Even when execution was imminent, Ignatius refused to recant his faith.

"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth. Who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe in Him." Trallians

"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh but Son of God by the Divine will and powered, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch... That He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection." Smyrneans, 1

"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate. For these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope." Magnesians XI

---

and some more

1. CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from 26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.

"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44

2. GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.) Suetonius was a prominent Roman historian who recorded the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He served as a court official under Hadrian and as an annalist for the Imperial House. Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.

"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4

3. THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a 2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak." Chronography XVIII, 47

4. PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D) Pliny the Younger admits to torturing and executing Christians who refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being killed for their refusal to deny their faith.

"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ. They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger..." Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan

5. FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (37 - 100 A.D.) Josephus was a first century pharisee and historian of both priestly and royal ancestry who provided important insight into first-century Judaism. Josephus was born only three years after the crucifixion of Jesus, making him a credible witness to the historicity of Jesus.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. For he appeared to them alive again the third day. As the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribes of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities XVIII, 3:2

Quote:1. CLEMENT OF ROME (? - 98? A.D.) Clement was a bishop of Rome and later became known as the fourth pope. He was eventually martyred in approximately 98 A.D. Some speculate Paul was referring to Clement in Philippians 4:3 but this cannot be proven. Clement was a first century apostolic author which gives credence to his first-hand account of early Christianity. In the passage below, Clement confirms the ministry of the disciples and some of the basic tenets of early Christianity.

"The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and being fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God will full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their first fruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe."

2. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D) Ignatius was a Bishop of Antioch reported to have been appointed to his position by Peter of whom he was a disciple. He is also believed to be a disciple of Paul and John. Ignatius was arrested by the Romans and executed as a martyr in the arena. Even though his testimony would ultimately lead to his death, Ignatius was adamant about the things he witnessed. He reinforces early Christian beliefs in the letters he penned while in prison. Even when execution was imminent, Ignatius refused to recant his faith.

"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and those under the earth. Who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His father having raised Him, who in the like fashion will so raise us also who believe in Him." Trallians

"He is truly of the race of David according to the flesh but Son of God by the Divine will and powered, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John that all righteousness might be fulfilled by Him, truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch... That He might set up an ensign unto all ages through His resurrection." Smyrneans, 1

"Be ye fully persuaded concerning the birth and the passion and the resurrection, which took place in the time of the governorship of Pontius Pilate. For these things were truly and certainly done by Jesus Christ our hope." Magnesians XI

Both of these pieces of "evidence" are unverifiable claims. Neither of them actually prove the existence of Jesus. They also are both from bishops and therefore extremely likely to be biased.

Quote:1. CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from 26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.

"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 4

This just shows that someone called Christus existed, and was executed. It does not verify any beliefs held by christians beyond that. There is no claim that he is the son of god in this passage.

(January 3, 2012 at 10:50 am)chipan Wrote:

TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote:There is no evidence for the existence of Jesus.

i'm so sick of people saying this i've posted so much evidence on other threads. fine i'll post them here since you are unconvinced. here are historical doccuments.

1. CLEMENT OF ROME (? - 98? A.D.) Clement was a bishop of Rome and later became known as the fourth pope. He was eventually martyred in approximately 98 A.D. Some speculate Paul was referring to Clement in Philippians 4:3 but this cannot be proven. Clement was a first century apostolic author which gives credence to his first-hand account of early Christianity. In the passage below, Clement confirms the ministry of the disciples and some of the basic tenets of early Christianity.

2. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D) Ignatius was a Bishop of Antioch reported to have been appointed to his position by Peter of whom he was a disciple. He is also believed to be a disciple of Paul and John. Ignatius was arrested by the Romans and executed as a martyr in the arena. Even though his testimony would ultimately lead to his death, Ignatius was adamant about the things he witnessed. He reinforces early Christian beliefs in the letters he penned while in prison. Even when execution was imminent, Ignatius refused to recant his faith.

and some more

1. CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from 26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.

2. GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.) Suetonius was a prominent Roman historian who recorded the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He served as a court official under Hadrian and as an annalist for the Imperial House. Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.

3. THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a 2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.


4. PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D) Pliny the Younger admits to torturing and executing Christians who refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being killed for their refusal to deny their faith.


5. FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (37 - 100 A.D.) Josephus was a first century pharisee and historian of both priestly and royal ancestry who provided important insight into first-century Judaism. Josephus was born only three years after the crucifixion of Jesus, making him a credible witness to the historicity of Jesus.

"Something is true because it matches reality, not because some well-regarded person said it."

I was talking about the Jews btw. It was more a rant than anything. The creator of the universe didn't present himself to the Chinese, for example, who were technologically advanced beyond essentially everyone at the time, he walked amongst a population that was superstition, mostly illiterate, technologically infantile, and thus susceptible tzo claims of the magical nature.

And fuck me in my beard, dude do you not understand what contemporary sources means? No one who was alive when jesus was said anything about him. Give us something new.