Angrboda:
 
Neil Degrasse Tyson has this series of videos that I have just started watching:
https://youtu.be/1gUTBX8ERhQ?t=557
 
He asks “Did Noah have dinosaur in his boat? If so, Noah was not human”
 
I sort of happen to agree with almost all of these atheist criticisms of “religious” thought.
 
I on the other hand am referring to religion in its etymological sense. That is “to bind back” which mean to reestablish a relationship with this “inner reality”.
 
So all of those claims about reality or moral guidance are only meaningful if they contribute to this attitude of “binding back”.
 
Otherwise it’s just another ideology and we are not short of ideologies in our time.


 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 
- I only meant that “God” is a universal phenomenon and everyone has equal access to it.
 
And “not believing” is not such a big issue either.
 
The Grand Nudger:
 
- I do understand this. That’s the atheist explanation. This explanation is correct in many ways. But there is also a spiritual explanation.
 
I see, in most religions including Islam, something called “the ego mind” which is different from “our true self” that distorts all true spiritual teachings, because
1) It merely understands spiritual teachings. The energy level of these individuals is adapted to a more mundane type of existence and not yet ready for a more intellectual / philosophical approach to issues that deal with realities that are beyond the physical reality.
2) It is scared of these teachings. “Change” is a very big issue for the ego. Just think how hard it is for some people to give up habits like gambling, smoking cigarettes or alcohol. The Ego likes things the way it has them and is frequently lazy and unwilling to explore different paths that are presented to it.
 
- So people are distorting the original meaning of these religious teachings. If you are not making mistakes in the interpretation of spiritual teachings this makes you an enlightened being or Avatar.
 
The other category is the category of people who are willingly distorting all of these teachings and are literally putting these teachings to the service of their ego. These are completely evil people who need to be stopped. And that’s what we are dealing with in Iran.

(February 24, 2026 at 9:39 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: - So what is religion?
 
- In it’s origin, it’s a sum of philosophical teachings and practical advices that includes methods that will allow individuals (like you or me) to create and maintain a stronger bond with this Ultimate Reality.
 
That’s all. 

Yes, I think that's a very fair summary of what religion is. 

It appears to be normal for people to ask certain basic questions. For example, about what is the fundamental basis of existence -- is it matter, or mind, etc.? Then if we can work out something about the qualities of this fundamental basis, we want to know how the human mind fits into this. And, most importantly, if reality operates in a knowable, regular way, how should we live in order to be best in alignment with this system?

(This is not to say that EVERYBODY asks these questions. Lots of people aren't interested. But it looks as though every different culture has tried to come up with answers.) 

Unfortunately, the word "religion" is unpopular these days. I saw a survey recently in which a large percentage of regular church-going Christians denied having any religion. They don't like the word, so they say something like "I don't have a religion, I have a personal relationship with Jesus." This seems problematic to me, but it tells us something about the word. 

A lot of people, understandably, assume that anything that qualifies as a religion has to include something which isn't in accord with modern scientific beliefs. 6-day creation, or something like that. But all of us here believe in things that can't be proven scientifically. We just draw a sort of fuzzy line between our unprovable beliefs (which are not religion) and other people's (which are). 

I mean, it just comes down to a definition of a word, and arguing about definitions on the Internet generally doesn't end up being a worthwhile thing to do.

Religion is organizational. It doesn't speak to profound truths (not intentionally) but rather to controlling the ideas of people. This is why we also have other words like "faith" and "spirituality" which are deemed as (near) synonyms, but are actually pretty different.

One is top-down. The others are bottom-up.

(February 24, 2026 at 9:49 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: The Grand Nudger:
 
- I do understand this. That’s the atheist explanation. This explanation is correct in many ways. But there is also a spiritual explanation.

No.  I can tell you do not understand this precisely because you said that above before launching into what follows below.  It acts this way.  It expresses itself as-such.  It is and does these things everywhere and at all known times regardless of whether there are gods or spirits or competing ideologies.  
 

Quote:I see, in most religions including Islam, something called “the ego mind” which is different from “our true self” that distorts all true spiritual teachings, because
1) It merely understands spiritual teachings. The energy level of these individuals is adapted to a more mundane type of existence and not yet ready for a more intellectual / philosophical approach to issues that deal with realities that are beyond the physical reality.
2) It is scared of these teachings. “Change” is a very big issue for the ego. Just think how hard it is for some people to give up habits like gambling, smoking cigarettes or alcohol. The Ego likes things the way it has them and is frequently lazy and unwilling to explore different paths that are presented to it.
 
- So people are distorting the original meaning of these religious teachings. If you are not making mistakes in the interpretation of spiritual teachings this makes you an enlightened being or Avatar.

The Original Meaning™ of these texts is even more barbaric and shitty than the modern interpretations you still see as broken.  What you're doing here is creating a fantasy of a past religion to vouch for your current religious beliefs, while calling the people who hold to those religious beliefs you would discard -for religious reasons- literal untermensch as an explanation for why they hold them.  Their fucking energy levels are low, lol.  Are you selling spirituality or testosterone supplements here?  Think about it.
 

Quote:The other category is the category of people who are willingly distorting all of these teachings and are literally putting these teachings to the service of their ego. These are completely evil people who need to be stopped. And that’s what we are dealing with in Iran.

Perhaps this was always their purpose, perhaps the teachings are themselves destructive, perhaps this is exactly the outcome a rational person would expect from a theocratic religious tradition founded by a pillaging warlord whose pedophilic heart gave out on him before the murderous little lordlings beneath him started squabbling for the remains of his bloody throne?  Until you can understand that religious people will do things you detest because they are pious you will fall down over and over on this issue.  The trouble with the iranian government isn't that they do islam wrong, it's that they do government wrong.

GrandNudger:
 

Quote:“The Original Meaning™ of these texts is even more barbaric and shitty than the modern interpretations you still see as broken.  What you're doing here is creating a fantasy of a past religion to vouch for your current religious beliefs, while calling the people who hold to those religious beliefs you would discard -for religious reasons- literal untermensch as an explanation for why they hold them.  Their fucking energy levels are low, lol.  Are you selling spirituality or testosterone supplements here?  Think about it.”

 
- Yes, this is also true. Many atheists are reading religious scriptures more than most of us do. The Bible and the Quran are full of violent stories, bitterness, scary declaration and some humbo-Jumbo stories that are annoying at best and deeply disturbing in other cases.
 
Think of the parts of the new-testament about the end of days. It is 10 time’s worse than the “IT” movie (1990) + adults seemed to enjoy themselves telling us such scary stories about things like the antichrist and the things they would do to us once we land in hell in the afterlife.
 
So some people are accepting these approaches. Which is why they will attempt to “help” people like you or me and they will do this believing that this is for our own good.
 
But we have already talked a lot about these issues. The more mystical / spiritual approach to religious teachings is actually the opposite of believing in such limiting and quite frankly harmful belief systems. I would never teach little children that there is a cosmic persona somewhere beyond the known universe and that this cosmic persona (together with his enemy the devil) are there to hurt them at the first mistake they make.
 
To me, something like fasting in the Ramadan, is not an obligation in which you get carrots for doing it and lashes for not doing it because the old pervert above is looking. – No. It’s a method, or a technique that can help you in self-mastery and contribute to your health by reducing the load of your digestive system every once in a while.
 
/ The reason why I am very opposed to simply letting go of religion is because I don’t want those who travestise everything about religion to own religion and force everyone else to embrace atheism, deism or other types of beliefs. No, I believe in calling people by their true names if you want. I want people like myself and most normal people I know of to be referred to as “ordinary believers” and them to be referred to as “extremists, fanatics, political Islamists, Salafists, strongly dogmatic and spiritually mislead persons”.
 
Yet, you know I have no issue about atheism. Because this is the spiritual choice that I am making. Many people are simply making the choice of not being a believer and not belonging to any church of any kind. After all the evil that has been done to humanity by “religious” people I cannot criticize such an attitude.
 
+ Believing in verifiable realities and forming a world view that is based on logical, Cartesian principle is actually the right way of doing things. I have simply added some amount of spiritual convictions to it because (for now) these are not really in conflict with my right-brain way of seeing things.
 
So this is an individual choice. I won’t even “spread the word” about these issues. It’ 100% individual choice.
 

Quote:“Perhaps this was always their purpose, perhaps the teachings are themselves destructive, perhaps this is exactly the outcome a rational person would expect from a theocratic religious tradition founded by a pillaging warlord whose pedophilic heart gave out on him before the murderous little lordlings beneath him started squabbling for the remains of his bloody throne?  Until you can understand that religious people will do things you detest because they are pious you will fall down over and over on this issue.  The trouble with the iranian government isn't that they do islam wrong, it's that they do government wrong.”
 

- In this case I would be surprised. I think the great teachers were all people with whom you could talk with hours and enjoy the time you spend with them. The reason why I think so is because “spiritual” people that I have met are that kind of people. I visited people like that in places like India and Nepal. They were very kind people, they have their convictions yes, they will try to talk you out of some of your attitudes etc. But I don’t see spiritual figures of any religion pouring yoghurt on the head of a woman who hasn’t covered her head (for instance).
 
So That’s not how I see things

(March 3, 2026 at 10:52 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: GrandNudger:
 

Quote:“The Original Meaning™ of these texts is even more barbaric and shitty than the modern interpretations you still see as broken.  What you're doing here is creating a fantasy of a past religion to vouch for your current religious beliefs, while calling the people who hold to those religious beliefs you would discard -for religious reasons- literal untermensch as an explanation for why they hold them.  Their fucking energy levels are low, lol.  Are you selling spirituality or testosterone supplements here?  Think about it.”

 
- Yes, this is also true. Many atheists are reading religious scriptures more than most of us do. The Bible and the Quran are full of violent stories, bitterness, scary declaration and some humbo-Jumbo stories that are annoying at best and deeply disturbing in other cases.
 
Think of the parts of the new-testament about the end of days. It is 10 time’s worse than the “IT” movie (1990) + adults seemed to enjoy themselves telling us such scary stories about things like the antichrist and the things they would do to us once we land in hell in the afterlife.
 
So some people are accepting these approaches. Which is why they will attempt to “help” people like you or me and they will do this believing that this is for our own good.
 
But we have already talked a lot about these issues. The more mystical / spiritual approach to religious teachings is actually the opposite of believing in such limiting and quite frankly harmful belief systems. I would never teach little children that there is a cosmic persona somewhere beyond the known universe and that this cosmic persona (together with his enemy the devil) are there to hurt them at the first mistake they make.
 
To me, something like fasting in the Ramadan, is not an obligation in which you get carrots for doing it and lashes for not doing it because the old pervert above is looking. – No. It’s a method, or a technique that can help you in self-mastery and contribute to your health by reducing the load of your digestive system every once in a while.

"Woo."

@Leonardo17

Quote: 
 I only meant that “God” is a universal phenomenon and everyone has equal access to it.

God is neither universal nor a phenomenon. It God was universal, atheism wouldn’t exist and everyone would have identical views about It. If God was a phenomenon, we could measure It.

Boru

(March 3, 2026 at 11:51 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: @Leonardo17

Quote: 
 I only meant that “God” is a universal phenomenon and everyone has equal access to it.

God is neither universal nor a phenomenon. It God was universal, atheism wouldn’t exist and everyone would have identical views about It. If God was a phenomenon, we could measure It.

Boru

I have no issue with atheism. Atheism usually asks all the good questions about religion and spirituality. It adds humility to people like me because I myself am still in this quest to understand the very spiritual principles I am talking about.
 
But in summary: “I believe in something that is both the Universe and the creative power beyond the universe that is present within all living and unloving things to which everybody can have access if they chose to”. And I said this to mean that I don’t need any intermediary for it. And I said it to emphasize that this is an individual path. The Course in Miracles says that we are all in an “individualized curriculum” in our lives. So I can’t have an issue with atheism if it is (most probably) your individualized curriculum in this life-time.
 
And the more socialized / politicized forms of religion simply don’t apply to our age anymore. Even the most typical Muslim or Christian would tell you that (whatever it is) your religious practice is there to benefit or harm you and you only. So to me there can’t be a “politics of religion”. The way I see it, it’s within you and within you only. It’s an inside phenomenon. That’s what I said.
 
And believing it doesn’t exist, is not that far from reality either.
 
I don’t know if I sound like a mad-man. But I’m not really trying to sound like a mad man. That’s the closest I can get to explaining it.

^Ah, you take ACIM seriously. That helps explain your New Age psychobabble.

And your claim that religious practice benefits or harms only the practitioner is so far beyond wrong that it makes my brain wobble.

Boru

Let's have a show of hands -- who gives a shit how Leonardo sees his god?