(August 25, 2026 at 2:16 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(August 25, 2026 at 12:57 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Curse you and your facts! Curse them, I say!! 

Boru

I didnt even count various "genocides" and "massacres" outside of the Levant and in the early 20th century, which most of you may already know. I tried to stick close to his original claim about 19th century and "this region".

There is a reason the Ottoman Empire was called "Sick man at the Bosporus" in the early 19th century already. There are reasons this was the result of a rather slow and agonizing decline in earlier decades/centuries. There are reasons for the decline of this particularly multiethnic empire, namely inter-ethnic and inter-religious issues.

One wonders why Leo the Turk of all people does not seem to know this, yet its the same Leo who reads Mao and Che Guevara, and who follows the "theory" of Swami sonandso and his ideas of "human ages" and "energy". Maybe, just maybe a book about history of the Ottoman Empire would have been useful? 

There you go again - encouraging Leo to actually learn things. A fool’s errand if ever there was one. 😉

Boru

(August 25, 2026 at 2:20 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(August 25, 2026 at 1:05 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: @Leonardo17


A million dead Armenians (at least) would like a word about the ‘quiet and peaceful life.’ Idiot.

Boru

Ask the Assyrians and Bulgarian Thracians while you are at it.

‘I wish Europe would let Russia annihilate Turkey a little - not much, but enough to make it difficult to find the place again without a divining rod or a diving bell.’ - Mark Twain

Boru

(August 25, 2026 at 8:37 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: Not everything that happens is because of Donald Trump. All I am saying is that this path that has been taken by Iran 46 years ago is not a sustainable path. Sooner or later there was going to be a US president that was going to hit them in one way or the other. And the only remaining card of this regime is the “pressuring its own people” card.  

My only concern at this point is the amount of munition + missiles + patriot system D. Trump has wasted in this war. But I cannot really talk about that because I’m not a military expert. But putting economic pressure on the regime by blockading its ports is not a bad move. In fact, it’s the only logical strategy at this point.

There are no logical options at this point.  Alot of that is the book of business so far, and some of it comes down to not dealing with explicitly or exclusively rational negotiators in the first place. Economic pressure had already been tried, and failed.  The jcpoa was probably the best agreement this generation of leaders on either side were going to come up with. Relief, not pressure. Blockading the strait is, among a range of exclusively suboptimal decisions, possibly the worst.  This is mostly because Iran does not see this as the us "winning"...rather, this is the us as an unwitting (or witless, take your pick) coconspirator on their blockade of global trade and energy supplies.  They become more powerful, not less, the more dire the situation there becomes. Iran could cease to exist as a state and that would not necessarily remove the strait from the guards grip. Welcome to war in the 21st centruy.

(August 25, 2026 at 6:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Alot of that is the book of business so far

In Balinese, Indonesian, and Javanese, the word "alot" means "tough." 

In Kiput, the language of Borneo, it means "boat." 

It is not a word in English.

(August 25, 2026 at 7:35 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(August 25, 2026 at 6:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Alot of that is the book of business so far

In Balinese, Indonesian, and Javanese, the word "alot" means "tough." 

In Kiput, the language of Borneo, it means "boat." 

It is not a word in English.

‘Insignificant typographical error’, on the other hand, is a perfectly valid English phrase.

Boru

(August 25, 2026 at 8:41 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(August 25, 2026 at 7:35 pm)Belacqua Wrote: In Balinese, Indonesian, and Javanese, the word "alot" means "tough." 

In Kiput, the language of Borneo, it means "boat." 

It is not a word in English.

‘Insignificant typographical error’, on the other hand, is a perfectly valid English phrase.

Boru

Well, Bel ran out of cogent arguments ages ago.

The one time we might find easy and common ground with all of the ways the US turned the middle east into a no win situation.

Mister Agenda:
 

Quote:“There was an effective and much cheaper way to effect change in Iran: Use their own tactics against them. Provide arms and material support to dissidents. Now that won't work (at least not for a decade) because support for regime change dwindles when an outsider is bombing you.”

 
- That is a D. Trump disinformation. If you are talking about Kurdish rebel groups, all that they care about is their own independence. They have light equipment and are carrying out hit and run tactics in their own region. They cannot march against the tanks and artillery of the regime no matter what.
 
BrianSodingBoru:
 

Quote:“(Bold mine)
 
And the other one is the United States.
 
Boru”

 
- Absolutely. But as I said. Since the British + French took the whole area in 1917. Even Iran was invaded by the Brits and the Russians in 1941. To this these major imperial powers added the state of Israel in 1949. So no matter what ideology you believe in, can you simply withdraw from the region just like you withdrew from Afghanistan exactly 5 years ago now?
 
Desse23:
 
- Yes these events + the Armenian genocide happened. But on a scale of 500 years, these were rather rare events. Most of these started to happen with the rise of nationalism in the send half of the 19th century. That’s why the Empire imploded in the first place. In earlier times everyone was just the subject of the empire. Then suddenly people started to claim their own ethnic and religious identities. And then this rather huge piece of territory started to scatter until all that was left was the capital itself which ended up being controlled by British and French troops.
 
Still until then, despite numerous revolts that happened here and then, the Ottoman administration (based on Sharia law) ensured that all these ethnic groups lived in relative peace and harmony with one another.
 
Grand Nudger:
 

Quote:“There are no logical options at this point.  Alot of that is the book of business so far, and some of it comes down to not dealing with explicitly or exclusively rational negotiators in the first place. Economic pressure had already been tried, and failed.  The jcpoa was probably the best agreement this generation of leaders on either side were going to come up with. Relief, not pressure. Blockading the strait is, among a range of exclusively suboptimal decisions, possibly the worst.  This is mostly because Iran does not see this as the us "winning"...rather, this is the us as an unwitting (or witless, take your pick) coconspirator on their blockade of global trade and energy supplies.  They become more powerful, not less, the more dire the situation there becomes. Iran could cease to exist as a state and that would not necessarily remove the strait from the guards grip. Welcome to war in the 21st centruy.”

 
- I agree that nothing seems to work at this point. And I am angry with Trump for wasting all these ammunitions for nothing in a time when Ukraine needs them and in a time when China + North Korea could threaten US allies in the Pacific region:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/arti...57046.html
 
/ It’s not easy to understand why some Americans are still voting for this guy.
 
- The blockade of Iranian ports is a good idea. At this point it’s the only thing the US can do and has to do. You can’t convice China not to buy Iranian or Russian oil. So this is the only solution. But all the rest is just blah blah blah. (What’s an economic D-Day? At some point we are going to need an English – Trump English dictionary. I’m really no longer following at this point   )
 

Quote:“The one time we might find easy and common ground with all of the ways the US turned the middle east into a no win situation.”

 
- I don’t think it is. But I am not sure that the whole situation is being handled correctly. This is very confusing. Just the way they started the campaign. And then the issue is forgotten. And then he wants to change the regime once again. He Agrees Netanyahu disagrees. Netanyahu Agrees he disagrees.

Again: Why are some Americans voting for this guy?

@Leonardo17

Quote:Why are some Americans voting for this guy?

Because he plays on their fears and prejudices. People tend to love the people who hate the same things they do.

Boru

@Leonardo17

Quote:So no matter what ideology you believe in, can you simply withdraw from the region just like you withdrew from Afghanistan exactly 5 years ago now?

To which ‘you’ are you referring?

Boru