I’ve found that alit of the time, when god believers talk about moral subjectivity…what they actually mean is not that morality is subjective but that a given moral postulate is wrong. Incorrect. A misinformed opinion. Pretty hard to swallow on basic shit like “is it okay to send a bear to maul kids”. Pretty sure I’ve got a correct moral opinion on that one…and that the god in magic book doesn’t share it.

(October 12, 2026 at 7:33 am)Angrboda Wrote:

(October 12, 2026 at 6:39 am)emjay Wrote: As far as I'm concerned it reliably and directly reduces anxiety and rumination, just essentially by changing the subject of your focus, simple as that really. Labelling 'fear arising', and moving your attention back to your meditation or mindfulness object(s) so to speak, is a very different experience than getting sucked into that fear, and it, in my opinion, does reduce fear, in the moment, just by virtue of not feeding it... of not getting sucked into it, or less so.

This is a theory or hypothesis.  That it seems like common sense to you does not make it true.  Your defense of it rests on two fallacies, post hoc ergo propter hoc and appeal to common sense.  Since your conclusions about mindfulness rest on fallacies, your conclusion that this is what is happening in mindfulness is invalid, it isn't reliably true.  You need actual support for your reasoning, not this crap.

I'm probably going to regret this, but what the hell, I'm still curious what you find so illogical about this. I've looked up that logical fallacy you think I'm making 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' and I think I understand it, but I still fail to see why you think it applies here. All I'm claiming is that if you focus less on something it will naturally be less focused on, and therefore whatever happens when you focus on it, will happen less... I don't see what's illogical about that... if anything, it seems more like a 'tautology' or almost true by definition.

The only thing I can think of that could potentially counter that is the notion that the effect, e.g. anxiety, rumination, anger etc, happens regardless of whether you are focusing on it or not? Is that what you are claiming? If so, then I suppose I can agree that that sort of thing might happen at the level of a mood... like early after my operation I had something like that as a side effect from one of the drugs, an overwhelming negative mood of some kind that mindfulness did nothing to help (IIRC) because there was nothing specific to notice arising... but at the level of individual, noticeable thoughts, I don't see what's illogical about what I've said? Or are you talking about something like subconscious anxiety, rumination, or anger? Maybe that's possible for two of those, anxiety and anger, but I don't see how it would be for 'rumination' which at least one definition of that is 'to be deep in thought'... how can you be deep in thought about something without focusing your attention on it?

So is the problem that I have just not been specific enough with my 'claim'? That it's not in reference to subconscious or general moods, but rather just to whatever can be 'noticed' 'arising' in consciousness, and is therefore, by virtue of that, a candidate for decisions (or the illusion of decisions) to be made on whether or not, or to what degree, to focus attention on it. Is that specific enough?

(October 12, 2026 at 7:33 am)Angrboda Wrote:

(October 12, 2026 at 6:39 am)emjay Wrote: As far as I'm concerned it reliably and directly reduces anxiety and rumination, just essentially by changing the subject of your focus, simple as that really. Labelling 'fear arising', and moving your attention back to your meditation or mindfulness object(s) so to speak, is a very different experience than getting sucked into that fear, and it, in my opinion, does reduce fear, in the moment, just by virtue of not feeding it... of not getting sucked into it, or less so.

This is a theory or hypothesis.  That it seems like common sense to you does not make it true.  Your defense of it rests on two fallacies, post hoc ergo propter hoc and appeal to common sense.  Since your conclusions about mindfulness rest on fallacies, your conclusion that this is what is happening in mindfulness is invalid, it isn't reliably true.  You need actual support for your reasoning, not this crap.

I don't understand yet why this would be a "post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy." 

If someone says "when I do X I reliably get result Y" that's not necessarily a fallacy. In the present case, Emjay is describing his personal experience. To accuse him of such a fallacy, we'd have to argue that the result Y couldn't possibly follow from action X. 

If he were saying that whenever he does mindfulness meditation then the Kansas City Chiefs win, that would not be credible. But doing certain kinds of mediation practices has been found by many many people to have certain emotional effects. If he says "it calms me down," I don't feel confident in telling him "you're wrong, it doesn't calm you down." He's the one who knows, not you or me. 

No one here is claiming that mindfulness meditation is supernatural, or based in unscientific Buddhist metaphysics, or that it works for everyone all the time. The science-type research I've seen indicates that it sometimes works pretty well for some people. If Emjay reports that it works pretty well for him I don't understand why we want to tell him he's wrong. 

I have always been really bad at meditation when I tried it. The kind where you sit still and just pay attention to your breath going in and out doesn't work for me, because my mind is way too full of chatter. But I have found that if I put on some really good music quite loud on the stereo, and do my best to keep my focus on the music, it can help me to focus. 

So if I've had a busy or stressful morning, I'll put on Bach or Mozart -- something with multiple layers acting in counterpoint and harmony. I turn off all the screens and close the curtains and do my best to pay attention to the interaction of the different layers, not just follow the melody. A half hour or 45 minutes of this functions pretty well as a re-set button, and once it's done I can pull myself together enough to work on other things. 

So I believe that we can actively guide our attention to some extent, and that this can have a positive influence. It's not what you need for serious mental illness or trauma, but for regular daily distraction it seems to work pretty well.

@Belacqua

Quote:If someone says "when I do X I reliably get result Y" that's not necessarily a fallacy. In the present case, Emjay is describing his personal experience. To accuse him of such a fallacy, we'd have to argue that the result Y couldn't possibly follow from action X. 

No, we merely have to point out that Y doesn't necessarily follow from X.

Boru

Quote:If someone says "when I do X I reliably get result Y" that's not necessarily a fallacy.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc literally translates to: after this therefore because of this
Roosters ..sun rises

Some people seem to be too much invested in philosophy, instead of learning basic logic and reason. But I get it, less room to wiggle and even less opportunities to hide behind other peoples claims.

First:
Something either is a fallacy or not. The word necessary makes no sense here.

Second:
The word necessary only makes sense in this context if one is confused about what a fallacy even is. A fallacy does not address the actual truth value of a claim, but it being reasonable to accept the claim as being true.

That being said, I am happy for emjay that he found a way to reliably deal with his anxiety and fear, regardless of the true mechanism behind his mindfulness.

It's all right, I'm starting to accept it... that it's a load of bollocks. That 'mindfulness' only really works at a superficial level... once a thought or rumination gets too deep or obsessive, like thinking about all this has been, then mindfulness doesn't help, as anything more than a temporary and superficial level of distraction, if that. So yeah, I need to find something better... even more reliable. Thanks guys for your concern, even you Angrboda for living up to your name as 'bringer of grief'... but also 'bringer of insight'... seriously, thank you for that.

Now I'm looking in a different direction... a random idea I had about wanting to change my relationship to pain on a more fundamental level, through personification of it, almost like a Greek mythological character... who all represent something metaphorically..., and talking about it with ChatGPT it turned out it had a lot to say about it... that a lot of people have got a lot to say about it... and aiming almost to welcome it rather than reject it. We have no choice about our existence but neither does conscious sensation, when you think about it that way... i.e. pain didn't ask to be 'born' any more than we did, yet our natural tendency is to push it away... but maybe it shouldn't be. So yeah, that's looking promising for the sake of developing 'equanimity'. So yeah, just consider that mindfulness rug officially pulled, and I'm sorry for getting so hyped about it, but now it's time to look in other directions.

I think emjay and Bel have misunderstood the point. If engaging in some practice helps you, that's fine. But be skeptical of theories about what is specifically happening and why and how what follows does so. I used to attend Buddhist meetups and I would hear a ton of different interpretations of the Buddha's teachings. Everybody had a theory about what the Buddha's method was and how it was supposed to work. For every ten Buddhists there were eleven interpretations. Quite simply they were all simply applying their own biases and beliefs to their experience to create the Buddha's meaning. It was largely just baseless speculation. Likewise with meditation and mindfulness. There is evidence that as a practice, it has benefits. The mechanism behind that correlation, though, is less well understood. Again, it's important to separate out that it is a correlation, and correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation.

(October 13, 2026 at 5:54 am)emjay Wrote: It's all right, I'm starting to accept it... that it's a load of bollocks. That 'mindfulness' only really works at a superficial level... once a thought or rumination gets too deep or obsessive, like thinking about all this has been, then mindfulness doesn't help, as anything more than a temporary and superficial level of distraction

Too many cooks spoil the meal as we say here, but let me add this if you may.

Have you consulted a doctor yet? Maybe its some kind of medical condition (physiologically or psycholgically) that can be treated with medication? Maybe therapy is in order? In any case mindfulness can be a good supporting strategy for you if i have got your previous posts correctly.

(October 13, 2026 at 7:24 am)Angrboda Wrote: I think emjay and Bel have misunderstood the point.  If engaging in some practice helps you, that's fine.  But be skeptical of theories about what is specifically happening and why and how what follows does so.  I used to attend Buddhist meetups and I would hear a ton of different interpretations of the Buddha's teachings.  Everybody had a theory about what the Buddha's method was and how it was supposed to work.  For every ten Buddhists there were eleven interpretations.  Quite simply they were all simply applying their own biases and beliefs to their experience to create the Buddha's meaning.   It was largely just baseless speculation.  Likewise with meditation and mindfulness.  There is evidence that as a prctice it has benefits.  The mechanism behind that correlation, though, is less well understood.  Again, it's important to separate out that it is a correlation, and correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation.

Yeah, I can accept that... that it all came down to different interpretations, and mine was just as much an idiosyncratic, biased, pick 'n' mix interpretation as anyone else's. Thanks for the insight, and sorry about all of this, and I hope you're doing alright with your own quest for peace and meaning... same to everyone else too  

(October 13, 2026 at 7:57 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(October 13, 2026 at 5:54 am)emjay Wrote: It's all right, I'm starting to accept it... that it's a load of bollocks. That 'mindfulness' only really works at a superficial level... once a thought or rumination gets too deep or obsessive, like thinking about all this has been, then mindfulness doesn't help, as anything more than a temporary and superficial level of distraction

Too many cooks spoil the meal as we say here, but let me add this if you may.

Have you consulted a doctor yet? Maybe its some kind of medical condition (physiologically or psycholgically) that can be treated with medication? Maybe therapy is in order? In any case mindfulness can be a good supporting strategy for you if i have got your previous posts correctly.

Thank you, but no, that's not my way. But thank you for your concern