(October 20, 2026 at 6:32 pm)emjay Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:05 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: I'll take it to mean you can't come up with an objective standard for morality as an atheist. So I'll move on.

I've heard the argument that even if God exists, his morality would be objective. I think it was Alex O'Connor who first offered it, and since then it's gained a lot of traction. But that's giving God human limitations. In this scenario, God is imperfect and has human flaws, and therefore his morality is just an opinion. The thing is that the God I believe in is perfectly Holy and perfectly moral. He is infinitely moral. He in fact created morality, and is the highest possible expert on the topic. I agree that if God doesn't posses all those qualities, his morality is imperfect and therefore subjective. Only if a perfectly moral God exists can there be a perfect moral ground. And that's the God I believe in, not the lesser God.

So how do you square this 'perfectly moral' conception of God, with a god that if it exists, needlessly created suffering in animals, other than humans, and a cycle of nature built around that? Do you believe animals suffer?... as in, have consciousness and experience pain?... yet have no part to play in this 'perfect morality' business and have no escape from that cycle of suffering?... how can you call that 'perfectly moral' with a straight face?

I believe everything God does is perfectly moral. He allows suffering for a greater cause. That doesn't mean I understand everything. I just trust God.

Can I ask you a question? Are you certain there is unnecessary suffering in the universe? Are you absolutely sure about that?

Blind trust is a cop-out for obviously abhorrent behavior. Which doesn't make the deity as good so much as it makes the believer gullible.

Quote:I believe everything God does is perfectly moral. He allows suffering for a greater cause. That doesn't mean I understand everything. I just trust God.

Assertions, assumptions, and blind faith—yawn.

Quote:Can I ask you a question? Are you certain there is unnecessary suffering in the universe? Are you absolutely sure about that?

There’s really no justification for the absurd amount of suffering in the universe, but it makes perfect sense if the universe isn’t the creation of a loving being.

(October 20, 2026 at 6:38 pm)Kitan Etos Wrote: Blind trust is a cop-out for obviously abhorrent behavior. Which doesn't make the deity as good so much as it makes the believer gullible.

Yup blindly trust the sky man like the Nazi's trusted Hitler everything he did was "for the greater good " The authority is good because holds power and claims to be good.

(October 20, 2026 at 6:35 pm)AngelThMan Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:32 pm)emjay Wrote: So how do you square this 'perfectly moral' conception of God, with a god that if it exists, needlessly created suffering in animals, other than humans, and a cycle of nature built around that? Do you believe animals suffer?... as in, have consciousness and experience pain?... yet have no part to play in this 'perfect morality' business and have no escape from that cycle of suffering?... how can you call that 'perfectly moral' with a straight face?

I believe everything God does is perfectly moral. He allows suffering for a greater cause. That doesn't mean I understand everything. I just trust God.

Can I ask you a question? Are you certain there is unnecessary suffering in the universe? Are you absolutely sure about that?

Would it have been so hard for him just to create a vegetarian world as it were... where there were only insentient plants to eat, not animals? Where animals are concerned, if they are not part of your morality construct, then yes, that is indeed unnecessary... needless... suffering.

(October 20, 2026 at 6:45 pm)emjay Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:35 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: I believe everything God does is perfectly moral. He allows suffering for a greater cause. That doesn't mean I understand everything. I just trust God.

Can I ask you a question? Are you certain there is unnecessary suffering in the universe? Are you absolutely sure about that?

Would it have been so hard for him just to create a vegetarian world as it were... where there were only insentient plants to eat, not animals? Where animals are concerned, if they are not part of your morality construct, then yes, that is indeed unnecessary... needless... suffering.

I think animal suffering is about human suffering. It makes people like you suffer. Animals themselves don't have souls, and therefore don't know they're suffering. The one who suffers is you, and God allows it for a greater good

Animals clearly feel pain and loss and they are fully aware of it so this statement is rubbish. Asserting god has a higher purpose is merely that a blind assertion,

(October 20, 2026 at 6:45 pm)emjay Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:35 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: I believe everything God does is perfectly moral. He allows suffering for a greater cause. That doesn't mean I understand everything. I just trust God.

Can I ask you a question? Are you certain there is unnecessary suffering in the universe? Are you absolutely sure about that?

Would it have been so hard for him just to create a vegetarian world as it were... where there were only insentient plants to eat, not animals? Where animals are concerned, if they are not part of your morality construct, then yes, that is indeed unnecessary... needless... suffering.

This fool denies animals can suffer ......lol

(October 20, 2026 at 6:47 pm)AngelThMan Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:45 pm)emjay Wrote: Would it have been so hard for him just to create a vegetarian world as it were... where there were only insentient plants to eat, not animals? Where animals are concerned, if they are not part of your morality construct, then yes, that is indeed unnecessary... needless... suffering.

I think animal suffering is about human suffering. It makes people like you suffer. Animals themselves don't have souls, and therefore don't know they're suffering. The one who suffers is you, and God allows it for a greater good

If they experience pain, then they suffer... simple as that... whether they 'know' it or not.

(October 20, 2026 at 6:54 pm)emjay Wrote:

(October 20, 2026 at 6:47 pm)AngelThMan Wrote: I think animal suffering is about human suffering. It makes people like you suffer. Animals themselves don't have souls, and therefore don't know they're suffering. The one who suffers is you, and God allows it for a greater good

If they experience pain, then they suffer... simple as that... whether they 'know' it or not.

This fool has to completely ignore biology to pretend that animals aren’t aware of suffering, lol.