Quote:Shows how little you know of freewill and God for that matter, God does not torture and you can not show me that through the scriptures, you determine your destiny.

Liar. You havent read your bible. Jesus said there would "be wailing and gnashing of teeth". After all, it was Jesus who said that a place of "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" would also be the place of the "everlasting punishment" of multitudes of people (Matthew 25:41,46) in an age to come.

So yeah GC, God doesnt torture people, he "utilizes alternative punishment techniques". Because weeping and gnashing of teeth of everlasting fiery punishment for those who God hates. And who are these? "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

So yeah, an eternal "punishment" in a lake of fire and brimstone where we weep and gnash our teeth is not anywhere near TORTURE...oh no. Calling it torture would make Jesus look bad.

Quote:How do you see foreknowledge to be control over another.

We have all explained it to you in detail through several pages of posts, yet you are still incapable of understanding.

Quote:Did anyone see any sense in this post? Same old rehashed garbage put in another words. Before putting any concrete argument forward, these theists need to at-least make some sense.

Its nothing more than denial. GC is good at denial. Using GC's argument, I can ban his religion and threaten severe torture onto death for worshipping Jesus and still be labeled as giving people free will. Of course you have freewill to choose, but you must choose what I want you to choose or face the death of torture. Those who support me would not call it torture. They would call it "the law" or "righteousness punishment".

So let me get this straight...

You tell me that an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent being not only created everything, but also has plans for the future which he has revealed to people whom we call "prophets" which account as an evidence that this God exists... and out of ALL of this, you say that i still have my free will?

the same God, who I am told, killed all the first born children of egypt because he was mad at the Pharoah.

Predestination or not, explain to me how god killing an entire nations first born children off for being angry at the pharoah has to do with free will. It sounds AWEFULLY like God was against freewill of the first born. not to mention they were SUBJECTS of the pharoah. They HAD to do, and act, and believe how the pharoah commanded them.

...and how about the flood? predestination or not, God killed every man woman and child (even the unborn) because "they were evil". How does freewill exist in that situation?

(January 9, 2012 at 3:08 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: I used to be more interested in gnostic/mystic type stuff in the past. I studied it deeply and then found that it was nothing more than mindfuck.

Then again...thats just my personal opinion...and even then I am still attracted to a bit of it, most especially Discordianism and the other absurdist "mysticism" (if you can call it that..LOL)

I blew my link above.

This is what I wanted you to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcxyGnFU9bA

As to Gnosticism.
To me, its value is in the idea that God is within each of us and or that God can be accessed from within. I also like that we are to question everything.

Gnostics believe that apotheosis is real.

I believe that it is, having experienced it one time only. No proof of course. That is why I do not push my anecdotal story unless asked.

Regards
DL

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(January 9, 2012 at 3:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: Freewill

Could you remind us as to what hapened to A & E the first time they used their free will?

As I recall, God threw a fit all over them and us with original sin and all those other woes that he surprised A & E with.

Am I wrong?

Regards
DL

@ Godsdump -

I could attempt to explain why your own analogies work against you, or why you contradicted your own Bible, or why "horse shit" is a legitimate answer since I already addressed that portion of your post ...... but you wouldn't get it, and I'd spend the next few hours wasting my time on a person who will never get it. Everyone else here understands exactly what I'm talking about. Admittedly, it is sad that you're so far down below a level I can't even get to on the stupid meter. I'd tell you to wear a helmet everywhere you go if it wasn't for your head being crammed up your ass. Not a single one of your responses addressed my actual points. Which is ok I spose, I didn't really expect you to key in on it anyway.

Suffice it to say, you have earned the Idiot of the Day award to add to your growing collection.

(January 9, 2012 at 5:03 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Hell as the price of free will is one of the worst religious arguments I have ever heard. It's akin to me turning on the stove, setting my son in front of it, and saying, "daddy says don't touch, but I won't stop you if you try." A truly compassionate father would never put his son in that situation in the first place.

Nor set the murder of his son as ransom for the forgiveness of sin when he has no need to.

Not only is that not compassion, it is insanity.

Regards
DL

Not to mention A&E (Adam and Eve) were set up...they were framed.

God created them IMPERFECT on purpose.

Doing what god tells yo to do is considered "good", not doing what he tells you to do is considered "evil"

God places a delicious looking tree in the very center of his garden (rubbing it in and setting the bait). This tree is the "knowledge of good and evil", which means for Adam and eve to have knowledge of good and evil, they would have to eat of the tree that god commanded them not to eat thereof.

Do you see where I am going with this? How would they know that defying god was "evil" when neither of them had the ability to yet sense what god determine was good and evil?

Then god allows satan into the garden to tempt his innocent creations. Either that or god didnt know. In fact there are more than one verse that has god acting suprised at certain events, such as when Adam hid from the lord and the lord was walking around looking for him.

All in all I say it is some of the worst mythology I have ever read. On a scale from 1 to 5, 5 being the best, I barely rate it as a "1".

(January 10, 2012 at 3:45 am)Forsaken Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='226419' dateline='1326179919']
[hide]

Did anyone see any sense in this post? Same old rehashed garbage put in another words. Before putting any concrete argument forward, these theists need to at-least make some sense.

And go against their founding father!!!
Bite your tonge.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther

Regards
DL

(January 10, 2012 at 1:29 pm)Cinjin Wrote: @ Godsdump -
Everyone else here understands exactly what I'm talking about. Admittedly, it is sad that you're so far down below a level I can't even get to on the stupid meter.

Because it is far easier for you, being a man of intelligence, to act at the level of imbecile, than for an imbecile, to act as a man of intelligence.

Quote:I'd tell you to wear a helmet everywhere you go if it wasn't for your head being crammed up your ass. Not a single one of your responses addressed my actual points. Which is ok I spose, I didn't really expect you to key in on it anyway.

Quote:As you shouldnt.

Suffice it to say, you have earned the Idiot of the Day award to add to your growing collection.

LMFAO!

(January 10, 2012 at 1:37 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Not to mention A&E (Adam and Eve) were set up...they were framed.

God created them IMPERFECT on purpose.

Doing what god tells yo to do is considered "good", not doing what he tells you to do is considered "evil"

God places a delicious looking tree in the very center of his garden (rubbing it in and setting the bait). This tree is the "knowledge of good and evil", which means for Adam and eve to have knowledge of good and evil, they would have to eat of the tree that god commanded them not to eat thereof.

Do you see where I am going with this? How would they know that defying god was "evil" when neither of them had the ability to yet sense what god determine was good and evil?

Then god allows satan into the garden to tempt his innocent creations. Either that or god didnt know. In fact there are more than one verse that has god acting suprised at certain events, such as when Adam hid from the lord and the lord was walking around looking for him.

All in all I say it is some of the worst mythology I have ever read. On a scale from 1 to 5, 5 being the best, I barely rate it as a "1".

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

Regards
DL

Yeah, I agree. christianity sucks donkey balls.

I have had Christians ask me "What would it take for you to return to the faith"

I give them the same answer that I always hand out when asked such a question: "$10 million dollars cash."

I refuse to be a Christian unless I am very wealthy because of it. I refuse to be a dirt begging serf of a Christian.

You want me to be saved? Make me a pope. Give me a cadilac. Give me a mansion... then I will act llike I am a Christian.

Why? Because I know the REAL reason why Christianity was created.